We can have a Tory government and Brexit or we can have the NHS. Which do you choose?

[verdantverdure]

YANBU I'm not a millionaire so I chose the NHS.

YABU I am a millionaire so I don't need the NHS and I choose Brexit and Tory government.

Actually, lots of economists would argue that’s not true. There’s a particular approach the Tory party use to persuade the public they need austerity and to claim there’s not money to go around. It tends to involve the idea of dangerous debt and too much public spending, the idea we’ve broken Britain by taking too much from the Government’s purse, the idea the welfare system is a drug and people don’t seek to get out of it and you’re either a hard worker whose worked to get your money or a lazy good-for-nothing who hasn’t. These things aren’t necessarily true. They’re a particularly narrative that comes into play in order to encourage society to conform to austerity. It also tends to mean people tend to say “but what can they do about schools/the nhs/social services, when there isn’t any money?” It doesn’t mean there actually isn’t any money that can be reorganised and found, it’s just a narrative we’re told.

I predict that not long after Labour get in we will have a means tested NHS whereby the middle classes will have to pay for all care (on top of their taxes) to fund the ever increasing demand. By the year 2041 there will only be 16 taxpayers left in the UK.

Neither. They are both incompetent shits who kill millions of people.

A new government

Well the last time they were in charge of the NHS it was ranked best in the world.

Our current government has wasted billions on pandemic profiteering, useless PPE and unused vaccines, and CPAP machines they would rather destroy than send to Ukraine.

Our last five Prime Ministers have cost the country billions by mismanagement of our economy, racking up record levels of debt whilst simultaneously providing crap public services and letting our schools and hospitals literally crumble, and by downgrading our rating so that debt costs us more, giving our country’s money to their mates and by mismanaging the debt so we end up paying more than we should. (Rishi Sunak did that last one while Chancellor)

The country is losing billions because of Brexit.

Once we get a government that does it’s job properly and doesn’t give our country’s money to their mates things can start to get better.

It doesn't matter. The entire West is in managed decline. No-one has an effective answer to top heavy populations, mass immigration or declining quality of life. The planet is warming, pretty much everyone has rowed back on doing anything about it, because it will lead to further decline, the Middle East, Russia and China are in chaos, and no-one else can do anything about that. The American voters have a choice of two dementia ridden idiots to set the world agenda. Who is in charge of UK Plc is a fairly mute point.

I've fought long and hard in defense of the NHS.

Hopefully what comes next is £200 a go to come and visit me.

@verdantverdure Do you know how much the NHS costs every year? Probably not. There is always government waste. Always has been. Waste in the nhs is huge too. It’s a money pit of inefficiency.

These figures exclude the one-off costs of Covid 2020-2022.

NHS spending in 2010/11 was £131.8bn. It has increased every year since. When we voted for Brexit in 2016/17 it was £144.1bn. In 2022/23 it was £181.7bn. This £27.6bn/year increase since 16/17 is approx £531m/week (Paddy McGuinness is just one of those who "can't see" this is higher than the infamous £350m/week he saw on the side of a bus).

No matter which party or coalition runs the country after the next election, the NHS will continue to have increased funding, and will continue to be inefficient, wasteful, badly run and the best we can expect is slow and minor improvements between worrying crises.

I also think that waste of resources is not intentional by anyone. What is the massive problem is that it’s not tackled. Poor decisions during COVID pale into insignificance when compared to running the NHS overall for 5 years. @jcyclops Rhenks for the figures. It’s interesting that austerity has provided a 50% increase in funds for the NHS. Most of us haven’t had 50% wage increases.

I'm European too. Everyone who lives in the UK is.

Which government would that be?

Yes, this. As someone who worked in the NHS for almost 30 years and now lives in France, there is no comparison.

People always pivot between the NHS and the US system, but there are plenty of examples of effective health systems which are different to both and do actually work.

Well I don't want the NHS as it is so on your options I guess it's Tory!!!
In reality what I think we need is a good hard non partisan look at the NHS and its failings and a look at elsewhere in Europe ( not the US) for better models

Agree. Anyone who’s expecting the NHS to recover without cross-party agreement on radical reform is going to be sorely disappointed forever more. Many will be disappointed even then, as many things that are currently available FOC wouldn’t be available under any effective reform without unpalatable tax rises.

Removal of bursary to train as a nurse.
Privatisation of ambulances, sexual health services, dentistry.
Loads more happening.

The NHS needs an overhaul for sure. No party is committed to this in any way at all.

Plenty do want nursing degrees. They are actually competitive. If they removed degree requirement they could go back to paying a wage and a mix of classroom and ward learning. There wasn’t much wrong with nurse training pre degree days!

Why is cross party agreement needed?

Why is reform needed?

Our current government.

What kind of alternative government would benefit the NHS? Surely not a Labour one, given the state of the NHS in Wales. And regarding Brexit, the Labour leader at the time had long been an outspoken critic of the EU.

I meant which party do you think would do the job properly?

I’m fully prepared to give anybody but the Tories a go.

In the General Election I will be voting for whichever candidate can win in our constituency who isn’t a Tory.

Reforming the NHS is literally all Wes Streeting talks about.

Maybe a different government could choose to fund the NHS properly rather than giving billions of pounds of our money to the energy companies so that they could make highest ever record profits ten times higher than usual?

Maybe some of you would rather give our country's money to oil and energy conglomerates? If so you know who to vote for.

However, those of us who need a functioning country need to vote for a government which shares that priority.