For not choosing the underprivileged child?

[PolitePeep]

Named changed for this as maybe outing, plus I probably sound like a huge bitch.

We have 1 DD age 12, hormonal tween stage. But generally a polite, thoughtful, well behaved kid.

DD has a few 'best' friends, one from school, one who's a sports team mate and one who she's known since a baby as I'm friends with the mum.

Having an only we are able to have kids over whenever DD fancies. Take a friend with us on days out etc.

School friend I find rude/ungrateful and treats me like I'm an annoyance and not to be interfering in her time with my DD.

Other two are polite and happy to chat while I'm giving them a lift home etc.

Here's the guilt part. The two polite friends each are from backgrounds where they get plenty of holidays, treats, days out etc.

I feel bad that I don't want to spend my weekend days with the school friend and so we invite one of the other two to days out/weekends away. As I know she won't get to visit where we're going.

My DD generally prefers to take one of the other girls as she sees the school one 5 days a week.

Should I feel guilty?

People learn manners from their parents. If this child is rude and ungrateful at 12, it will be because it’s all she’s ever seen from her main role models.
I was the underprivileged child and looking back I can see one or two school friends parents made a point of inviting me out to the cinema, dinners, events etc with their child because they noticed I would never have the opportunity to do that with by own parents. I am eternally grateful to them, as those experiences showed me the world and gave me something to aim for - I now have a nice life of my own and hope i can do the same for my DC’s less priviledged classmates.
I also vividly remember the day when I was out at a party with one of these friends and their parents, and the mum said very pointedly ‘thank you for having us’ to the host as we were leaving - and I realised this was the correct thing to say. I’ve always said an effusive ‘thank you for having us’ at everything I’ve been to since, and make sure DC does.
If you can see beyond the reason for this girls perceived rudeness, you can literally change her life by giving her experiences and modelling good behaviour.

@PolitePeep my ds has a best friend who's not underprivileged, but from a very large family so gets less attention and when he was younger he wasn't good at saying please and thank you. Ds knew I found it irritating so he spoke to his friend and kept reminding him! It worked and 11 years later his friend is a delightful guest! So might be worth a word with your daughter along the lines of her friend hasn't been taught to say thank you etc but it would really help her in life and maybe she could remind her. Or you could?

Obviously you don't choose to bring a child who is rude to you on a day out. Just say it to your daughter "I don't want to bring Olivia because she is rude and I find it annoying. Bring Sophia or Amelie instead."

We all had friends our parents didn't like. We liked them anyway because they were fun, but we fully understood why our parents didn't like them, and there was usually a good reason for it.

Got it in one.

Manners cost nothing, as they say. Being “underprivileged” doesn’t excuse rudeness.

I understand how annoying it is but if she is nice apart from the manners maybe try to see past it. It is something that is very much taught and at 12 is difficult to remember if you have never been told too.
Slightly different but I remember one friends parents telling me off for saying what instead of pardon. My parents had never taught me this and I just couldn't remember too. It makes me feel embarrassed and stressed even now thinking back! Another friends parents told us off for saying omg. I understand that for some this is serious as taking god's name in vain but if isn't something your told as a child it's hard to adapt in different houses.

I overhear her and DD having great fun and she's a sweet girl. Genuinely it's my issue with the manners and clearly thinking I'm a loser... Compared to her glam looking older sisters I'm very much a frumpy old librarian who is way too strict... Can feel that I'm letting this kid make me feel like the 'popular' ones at school made me. But when a 12 year old treats me in a way I'd be embarrassed to see someone else treating a waiter in restaurant I'm left not knowing what to do.

Kindly, this child is not sitting there comparing her friend's mum to her big sisters. Why would she? This child simply has not been taught to say please and thank you as a reflex, nor that you should show willing to go through the motions of polite chat with friends' parents even when you secretly find it intrusive... (not least when the adult is unwittingly giving off judgey passive-aggressive vibes, which might well make the child feel like a bit of a loser for not getting things 'right').

It feels like you've got the power dynamic totally reversed in your head because, as you know, this child is triggering something in you from your own experiences and so you are responding with an underlying logic of a tween/teen yourself. You also aknowledge that you massively overthink social interactions... have you tried working on it with a therapist? It could really help. In the meantime, DD is old enough now to fetch the ketchup for her guest.

Some of the responses on here are ridiculous.

I was that "underprivileged" school friend and I was included in plans with my much better off friends. I suspect it helped that despite all my underprivilege and horrible home life, I was polite and said thank you. It's not hard

OP it’s fine if it’s in line with your daughters preferences, but you said you try to engineer it and offer to your child to go out with friend A or B without mentioning C, which does seem a bit shit when you’re basing that on her lack of social graces despite knowing she’s from an under or privileged background and may not have had these role modelled in her life. Also sounds like you’re being quite hard on her tbh, and reading your further posts your reaction to her seems disproportionate and more about you than her. You’ve already admitted she’s a good kid and a kind friend to your DD so I think you need to explore why you’ve got issues with her, it doesn’t seem like it’s just about the ketchup really.

It sounds like she doesn’t know how to interact with you, because the dynamic in her home is so different.

I have a few embarrassing memories from my own childhood where I know I came off as rude to friends parents, but at the time I literally didn’t know what to say/ do. I didn’t have much parental guidance and my Mum wasn’t very nice to me.

"Good manners oil the wheels of society" is a phrase I once heard and think it's so true. Being polite isn't an affectation but very important part of any culture and society and a person's good or bad manners can have a huge influence on their outcomes in life; career, relationships and so on.

By modelling good manners to your DD's friend, who appears not to have the same example set for them at home, you're genuinely helping her in the long run.

You sound kind and considerate, OP and my only advice would be to keep helping this child by continuing to welcome her into your home and trying to make her feel that you like her/take an interest in her, even when her poor manners grate on you (a perfectly natural feeling, especially the scowling at you!).

Xx

I agree. That’s why in my comment I wrote the expectation of please and thank you should be there.

The OP claims the 12 yr old makes her feel like the popular kids did when she was a kid. This isn’t about the 12 year old’s manners, is it?

You're overthinking. The friend is being invited purely to make your family's experience better by providing company for DD. If the other child benefits that's a happy accident, not the purpose of the thing. You are causing your own dilemna by thinking of it as something you are bestowing on another child, rather than just something to make your own day better. So there's only two factors at play. Which child DD wants, and which child you will prefer to have along.

My advice:
If your DD specifically asks for the girl to come to your house then say yes. If she doesn't then don't fret about it.

Personally, for outings, i can see me being tempted to steer DD away by saying friend A or B and not mentioning C.

Is this a 'good' thing? Dunno, but it's human nature. When they are young we tend to steer our kids towards things and people that we prefer or are 'doable'. We make these decisions and compromises all the time; club venues we can get to without having to tie ourselves in knots to get there in time. Having kids round to play who seem like nice kids and who's parents we can negotiate with fairly easily.

When they get a bit older (12+) they start to make their own choices and being more independent and we are left trailing behind a bit, hoping for the best.

I think if your input is required in a big way (days out) then stick with the kids who are easy for YOU to deal with. If they're just knocking about in the house with TV and a few snacks, leave them to it. As long as they're not trashing the place obvs.

Remember it won't be long before she'll have friends you never lay eyes on - going out and about independently. I try hard to be 'neutral' mum. Not 'difficult' mum or 'everybody's best mate' mum, but somewhere in between.

Slightly different but I remember one friends parents telling me off for saying what instead of pardon. My parents had never taught me this and I just couldn't remember too. It makes me feel embarrassed and stressed even now thinking back!

My DH does this (normal in his family) and it makes me cringe because I grew up in a culture where it was considered rude and disrespectful to answer anyone that way. It was either “yes or yes, (insert person name or relation)?” or “ma’am/ sir?” for those older than you. DS2 started doing “what?” due to DH answering me that way and I taught him to say “yes?” or “yes, mum” instead.

Being around friends and their parents and listening to how they talked to each other was eye-opening. I didn’t say anything to friends about it but still wouldn’t be able to address anyone saying “what?” even if they were ok with it.

My partner and I had a neurodiverse child dating our teen.

It soon became clear the child was very emotionally neglected at home, in favour of a new step father.
As time went on, the child was dropped off with us more and more, until it extended to weekends and holidays.
It was a bit burdensome, but we felt really sorry for this poor kid.

The reason I mention this, is the very awkward, very depressed child we met, soon flourished and became very relaxed and confident! They just needed some care and attention in their lives. I don’t think their mother would have minded too much if they never came home.

You might just have the opportunity to transform a child’s life, and she will remember you fondly always.

It’s hardly ever personal this type of behaviour from children, don’t worry!

The best way to be popular with the kids is to provide plenty of good food, as you have been doing, plenty of entertainment, and just leave them to it! Give them some breathing room, let her have a chance to feel as at home as your daughter does.

In a similar age some adults seemed to me ridiculously performative about "verbal manners" - typically it contained lack of consistency from them, random selection of situations when they cared, being dismissive when I pointed out they do not do it themselves in similar situations, and total obliviousness to the ways how I did express the relevant concepts.

Special biscuits just wouldn't be worth it in that situation, it feels like a trap, another opportunity to be frowned upon just because of stupid biscuit with thick strings attached in form of adult's expectations.

When I worked behind a bar in my late 30s, I couldn't quite put my finger on what was "wrong" with a colleague. It came to me eventually. He disliked & belittled good manners. He mocked me for being "nice" to anyone. Exactly as my bullying sister had done when we were growing up. Being nice was being a creep, a loser, an idiot who would be walked all over sooner or later just because of being polite. Being nice meant, in these people's eyes, that I thought I was better than them. Being polite meant I was showing off (as well as being a creep & a loser).

I could be way off but maybe the girl in question has been brought up in this atmosphere. I was and I was rude, sarcastic, defiant, on my guard not to show any weakness by being nice.

Some of the very few people who showed me how to relax & trust myself to be kinder & more open were mothers of the few friends I had.

I think you have to be mindful of any unconscious bias you have towards this girl based on her background. Most kids at some point forget their manners but you really seem to have zeroed in on this girl's minor infractions.

I was a girl from a housing estate with middle class friends and the judgement reeked off their parents when they found out where I was from.

As you can expect when the usual teenage high jinx ensued and I was the only one told never to darken their non council house door. Didn't get in the way of our friendship though, 25 years on, I joked about it with her dad at her wedding.

@ComorosPearl I agree - I've met people like that. I've also met people who think that an apology (when they're clearly in the wrong) puts them at a disadvantage and they just won't do it.

Lol I tend to say this to Mt OH. Say pardon not what every times its slips out of his mouth Almost a standing joke between us now

Manners are nothing to do with money. She might act like this because she has to be selfish. But still she should be polite.

We had very little money when my DS was small until he was 14. But I knew and had feedback that he was polite and engaging when at sleepovers or on trips. It's about respect.

When my DS was older he had two friends from underprivileged backgrounds. Both were rude and didn't even say hello to me in my own home. They acted like they resented me. So I refused for them to come again.

If I had bias towards her background it would be for me to be more allowing of rudeness, not less.

I grew up in a much rougher area than we live in now. With friends and family in just as hard times.

Wasn't ever my experience that money/days out makes a person more or less polite.

what @ShoePalaver said. Lots of kids at this age (regardless of their family life) can be a bit rude, and not know how to handle comments like 'say please' or whatever you say to her. I think you've made your point to her, that you'd appreciate some politeness, and she'll see your DD saying those things. You never know, at some point she may start to be more polite if you don't pressure her.
You don't have to ask her to join you on big days out but I'd suggest you just try to breathe deeply and walk away when she isn't as polite as you'd like.