For not choosing the underprivileged child?

[PolitePeep]

Named changed for this as maybe outing, plus I probably sound like a huge bitch.

We have 1 DD age 12, hormonal tween stage. But generally a polite, thoughtful, well behaved kid.

DD has a few 'best' friends, one from school, one who's a sports team mate and one who she's known since a baby as I'm friends with the mum.

Having an only we are able to have kids over whenever DD fancies. Take a friend with us on days out etc.

School friend I find rude/ungrateful and treats me like I'm an annoyance and not to be interfering in her time with my DD.

Other two are polite and happy to chat while I'm giving them a lift home etc.

Here's the guilt part. The two polite friends each are from backgrounds where they get plenty of holidays, treats, days out etc.

I feel bad that I don't want to spend my weekend days with the school friend and so we invite one of the other two to days out/weekends away. As I know she won't get to visit where we're going.

My DD generally prefers to take one of the other girls as she sees the school one 5 days a week.

Should I feel guilty?

I think you're overthinking, which is fine, we all do it. If your daughter asks to take her somewhere, then fine. Manners in someone else's child I'm less worried about, I'm sturdy enough to roll my eyes internally and move on. I would make an point of being warm and friendly, as it sounds like you are, and keep going. I'd still jokingly comment on my daughter's manners if she forgot them, but not the other child's necessarily.

It’s poor that you’re suggesting the other two friends and not mentioning the third - influencing your DD’s choice. Would give her an actual choice.

"wildly grateful"?
It's a simple thank you, which most people would say (and expect to hear) in these situations.

I will admit to wording it "shall we see if child A or B would like to come ice skating with us" and not mention child C's name.

Of course, don't force her company on your child for the sake of charity! I genuinely would be hard pressed to give a shit about some other parent's child, let alone a rude one.

BUT, I would give your daughter a GENUINE choice – "shall we see if child A or B or C would like to come with us" – over a few outings, just to see what she says. She'll prob choose A or B but it's good to at least let her know C is an option.

This is not for that random child's sake, but your daughter's sake. My mother was a big believer in class barriers, not explicitly but we always knew friends/company had to be segregated. Implied snobbery – even if that's not your intention! Children just form belief patterns based on what they see – is actually not good for self worth, general happiness, etc later in life. Speaking from experience

She's 12 though, not 5. If she really wanted that friend she'd have told her mum surely.
But regardless, if someone is so constantly rude as this girl, it would be understandable for OP to refuse to have her over and tell her DD why.

She's a child. See my comment above. Parents are hugely influential on children's belief system as to what is possible/good – in fact, sometimes long after the child grows up.

(In response to your edit: yes agreed, within OP's rights. But be clear then about whose preferences you're honouring. It doesn't seem fair to say it's OP's child that doesn't want the company, when she was never actually given the choice.)

My suggestion is to alternate the days out so each friend goes every 3rd time.

For the girl with poor social skills this little bit of kindness may help improve them.

She may notice she’s being left out if she never gets to go - this will entrench her attitude of distrust.

Some might say she’s not your problem but she’s only with you for a short time - it takes a village and all that.

This maybe a little bit irritating to you but would eradicate the bit of guilt you feel that made you come here for other opinions.

We used to take other children out. I wouldnt constantly correct their manners, I'd correct my own child's and wait for them to learn what I expected. I did stop one raiding the fridge without asking. It would be nice to take this child for the odd day now and then - you're an adult, you can tolerate the odd rudeness. I wouldnt take them often or on anything longer than a day.

I only ever invite friends I can tolerate over for my kids. Don’t need someone else’s children being rude too me. I have known children from all backgrounds be nice or not nice. Life is too short to have the unpleasant ones round.

You shouldn’t engage because your twelve year old WILL think you’re an old fuddy duddy annoyance and her friend will use this against you. If she’s like this now (rude to you) she’ll only get worse.

Also, yes, saying things like “what’s the magic word” is soooo bloody patronising and I’d be furious if someone said it to my child. My child has manners, so would only have just forgotten or misspoke but even if she didn’t, what’s the point? Especially with this girl, she’s 12. If she’s rude, she’s rude. You trying to embarrass her into it only makes you look bad.

Oh and every one pointing out that she “may not understand the niceties and expectations of your life” are embarrassing themselves too and linking manners to socioeconomics.

Most “disadvantaged” parents teach their kids manners.

This girl, in particular, might have a rude family or a neglectful family. They’d be rude no matter how “advantaged” they were.

Are her caregivers rude or neglectful? Or is she just not very nice. Some kids are horrible - they usually grow up to be horrible adults.

horrible adults don’t just spring from nowhere. And kids are perfectly capable of being manipulative bastards if that is who they are.

keep your head down. Be perfectly nice so your daughter doesn’t think you’re trying to come in between them. Ignore the rude behaviour. If your daughter starts behaving that way too when this girl’s around then calmly tell her when she’s by herself that it’s just not on but you’re happy to have her friend around as you know she “just hasn’t been taught these things like manners - poor thing.” That way you come off as loving and giving. Your daughter doesn’t feel like you hate the girl - therefore driving them together through their teenage years. And hopefully they’ll distance from each other in the next few years.

I think you have to remember that SEN could be at play here too. DS is autistic and social niceties pass him by. He can't understand why you say thank you to someone working on a till doing their job for example or why you would say thank you to a parent being a parent. Thank you doesn't actually mean anything to him, he wouldn't see the point in someone saying it to him either, he can't see the point in something that is just a trained response to appear 'polite'.

All that said OP there's absolutely no point making yourself miserable by taking this girl out on a weekend out of pity. You have her over after school already and that is plenty. If you're going out of your way to do special things for her with the expectation that she must show her appreciation then it's clearly not working so why not just stop. And if she asks where the ketchup is, well just tell her, you don't have to run around after her.

i dont think you can only ever invite the polite ones, you dd will make the choice who she likes,

Why do you care about please and thank you so much?

When I was a teen, I was a bit awkward with those words and I hated adults who were all performative about them.
Luckily, my parents were able to take me places, so I wasn't at mercy of someone over-clinging on the artificial expressions of gratitude.

You know it is a pain point in your communication, maybe don't go too much out of your way to buy a special snacks, when it is a clear path to disappointment for you.

Do you think it's possible this girl knows what you think of her? I had a friend whose mother referred to me as "the boy from the council estate" (I found out through a mutual friend) it definitely affected how I interacted with her.

OP, it does sound like you're overthinking, as you've said. From the comments about you feeling she sees you as frumpy, and she makes you feel like she's in the 'popular' gang at school - do you think you could work on your reaction to her behaviour and get to a point where you're less bothered?

I'd say your examples fit 'not actively polite' more than 'actively rude'. If she's not got an ideal home life, it's not all that surprising that she may not entirely know how to behave, or may even feel embarrassed/awkward if your home environment is very different to hers. The friend you've known since she was a baby will of course feel more comfortable around you, so not very fair to compare. Could you chat to DD with a very light tone and say you've noticed schoolfriend doesn't say please/thank you, if DD is emotionally mature and may be able to nudge friend towards it or give you extra context.

I think you're fine to invite whichever friends your DD wants to see, regardless of their background, but the schoolfriend's behaviour doesn't sound so bad that you should be actively excluding her.

If it were me I would gently point out that it’s great to say thank you or maybe say to dd ‘well done for saying thank you’ as a slightly less full on version. I know it would possibly embarrass the child but I’d feel like I was doing her a favour in the long run.

pretty sure MN will disagree though and tbh I’m not certain if my ground by any means. I have adhd though so this would be my way of controlling a ‘blurting out’ situation and saying what I feel I must say in the moment, but in a slightly more measured and kinder way than my actual thought 😬

it sounds like she is putting on a front, making you feel awkward is just her coping mechanism with adults in this scenario.

@ZiriForGood but why are they artificial expressions of gratitude- weren’t you pleased to have a biscuit/lift/whatever?

perhaps she feels you looking down your nose at her

Agreed. Its your house and your rules. If you have raised your child with manners its helpful to show your child consistancy, rather than allow her to think she doesn't need to do as shes taught as the other child doesnt.
I dont tolerate bad behaviour by any of my childrens friends. We spend a lot of time with them and im kind and generous. However they all know what wont wash with me. Even if it does in their own home.
I will continue with this and im a strong believer in avoiding things that cause stress. The kids dont stress me because i set strong boundaries in my home and what my own children are exposed to. I will also have conversations with them about why x or ys behaviour wasnt acceptable.
Is it worth talking to the childs parent? Ive done that.

You've had a really hard time from some folk, OP. Take no heed. It's your house & your weekends & it's up to you who joins you. Yes, keep modelling good behaviours, keep pleasant & follow your DD's lead about who she wants to spend time with, but I'd not be encouraging extra time with her.

My DS has a relatively new friend- he has many, many friends, absolute social butterfly.& they've always all been welcome here- yet immediately I found him disrespectful & I didn't like my DS's behaviour when he was here. He came on a day trip in summer & his behaviour was so disrespectful it concerned me that my younger DS- who has ASD & ADHD- would copy it. This boy has ADHD, but that doesn't preclude him from being a bad influence. I made no mention of anything in front of him, but told DS I'd rather he met this friend elsewhere/ at his house. DS was 16 (now 17) and this lad 17 (now 18), so this is perfectly acceptable. If he had been much younger I'd still have requested not to have him here, though.

It sounds like this child is a good friend to your daughter and they enjoy spending time together - isn't that at the heart of this? You seem a little obsessive about the manners and could come acròss as rather overbearing. I could imagine my daughter cringing if I did what you've described. Try to back off a little and leave them to it whilst modelling good manners yourself.
I also think you are guilty of social engineering with the weekend invites. Your daughter may well not push to have school friend at the weekend because she knows you will react and it's more hassle than its worth dealing with the fallout (this was my my experience with a highly-strung father).
Of course you don't owe this child anything, but if you've never taken her on a day out you don't actually know what she would be like in that context. You may see a different side to her (equally you may not!). As long as she and your daughter get along and have a positive time together that's the most important thing.

There's nothing to say the "underpriviledged" girl would be happy or grateful to be asked. A girl at my DD's primary school was one of four children whom the parents admitted they had for the Benefits. The children were thin,the parents enormously fat, my DD told me that once when she was at their their house, the mother ate a dozen Cadbury's creme eggs in front of the children, and gave the children none. The children stank, when this girl came to my house I gave her a change of clothes and a shower and mended her own clothes before she went home. We took her on loads of outings. DD started noticing her things going missing, also money from her piggy bank. I called by DD's friend's house to talk to the mother pretending that my DD had loaned her DD the things, and could I have them please as DD's DGs who had gifted the things were coming to visit. The mother went to her DD's room and produced the stuff (so no doubt who stole them). Next time I saw DD's friend I said to her that it was wrong to steal. That evening I got a call from the mother screaming abuse at me and threatening to "kick my head in" for calling her DD a thief (this from a woman who,unbeknownst to me, was serving a suspended prison sentence for attacking a neighbour). To this day 20 years later I feel sorry for those children, but learned my lesson about being a "do-gooder".

Absolutely 100% this. Its nice to be thanked but not necessary. My dd has a lot of friends. Some are polite, some less. I just accept it. Its difficult being a tween at the best of times.

Many underprivileged children won’t have any cultural capital or ability to talk to other adults and they are also not used to feeling safe in a space so she probably comes to you and looks forward to it and feeling safe around your DD. I would take her on a few trips and see if she improves, it may be a bit alienating for her at first, she may just feel uncomfortable around you for now. However, it will make a big difference to her life to have those kinds of experiences. Have you done any sleep overs? Just so she starts feeling comfortable first.