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To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

1000 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/01/2024 23:35

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
OvaHere · 24/01/2024 09:52

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 09:27

@OvaHere

You seem to want to give Riley the least flattering interpretation of her actions whilst seeking the most flattering one for Thomas - a man who started this by lying his way into the female swim team and locker room.

I can't say that I have - I expressly wrote that I would not want a trans swimmer in my change room and that I wasn't surprised that Gaines was horrified. How is that flattering?

Because your post and the article linked seem to imply that Riley is exaggerating what happened for malign motivations such as fame, money or a career as conservative pundit.

On the flip side your post and the article sought to play down why Thomas was in the female locker room e.g. the male locker room wasn't available. Which has the effect of playing down his actions with the implication that he somehow couldn't help being in there. Thus ascribing a level of innocence to his motivations that I don't believe he deserves.

He chose to invade the female swim team and he chose to put himself in the female locker room. I find it far more likely that he was in fact flashing the women in there than Riley making it up for effect. Men with any semblance of decency do not go into female locker rooms in the first place.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2024 09:59

On the flip side your post and the article sought to play down why Thomas was in the female locker room e.g. the male locker room wasn't available. Which has the effect of playing down his actions with the implication that he somehow couldn't help being in there. Thus ascribing a level of innocence to his motivations that I don't believe he deserves.

He chose to invade the female swim team and he chose to put himself in the female locker room. I find it far more likely that he was in fact flashing the women in there than Riley making it up for effect. Men with any semblance of decency do not go into female locker rooms in the first place.

This. I've seen other evidence too. Thomas appears to have had social media profiles with all the red flags.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 10:06

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 09:46

@Helleofabore

Are we to believe that this is the source that we should find reliable enough to post references from?

Are we seriously to believe I could ever post a source you would accept?

I am not the person who has consistently posted patronising and censuring posts about women's media habits . What part of my posts are you just not understanding?

Have I once stated that people should be not posting sources for their information regardless of the issue? I am all for anyone posting the source of their information so that people can understand the issue better and make judgement about the credibility of the course - including the fact that even in dubious sources will be information that may be useful.

It is you who are here censoring women's media choices. I am pointing out the hypocrisy that you have posted a clearly manipulative article while declaring mainstream media to be manipulative. Can you see the hypocrisy?

Please, do continue to post your sources. However, please do stop warning about manipulative media when you are posting it here yourself.

AlisonDonut · 24/01/2024 10:12

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 09:34

Confused You're picking on my username now - are you linking me to child abuse? FFS.

It is your choice what name you choose.

It is my choice to read that and think 'hmm'.

That's the thing with the choices we make.

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 10:35

@AlisonDonut

It is your choice what name you choose.

It is my choice to read that and think 'hmm'.

That's the thing with the choices we make.

Okay. That's really, really bizarre.

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 10:37

@Helleofabore

It is you who are here censoring women's media choices.

I AM NOT CENSORING ANYTHING.

For those hard of hearing in the back of the room.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2024 10:42

Fine, then you've posted your sources, and other people have posted theirs. There are no sources which are entirely impartial. We don't agree on Riley Gaines, or who is being lied to and manipulated more. And we all have the freedom of speech to say so, haven't we? Great. Hooray for free speech!

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/01/2024 10:45

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 09:43

@lifeturnsonadime

And that @DrBalenciaga is trying to use Gaine's political leanings to discredit her lived experience.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. It isn't Gaines' political leanings that is the issue. It is how the Conservative movement have seized upon this and other incidents like it and elevated it. This is why you and I even know about it. In a way, Republicans are using her for their own gain. This is not discrediting her lived experience.

This is why you and I even know about it.

This is absolutely not true.
I learned about this in 2017 after some threads on MN (and I consider myself a latecomer by MN standards) and then I investigated and was horrified.
The conservatives have grasped it after it was publicised by mostly left-wing women.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're only noticing now that the conservatives have picked it up.
Maybe it's because the left-wing press and social media wouldn't allow any publicity? Why do you think that is?

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 10:46

By the way, does anyone consider Assigned Media as being a balanced source? Non-manipulative?

A source that has not sought to amplify a rather vile direction of dismissing and minimising the voice of one woman, who has been publicly backed by other women in the same situation. Thomas using the women’s changing room was not a one off. Yet, this article doesn’t mention any of it.

In fact, the person who posted the link doesn’t seem to have been even aware of the other women’s voices. Certainly this article never refers to them because it is likely that even then, one year on, other young women had not spoken out freely. So, maybe the author didn’t know to mention them at the time. Yet, they also have not corrected that article since either.

This is the about page:

Assigned media is a daily news website covering anti-trans propaganda in the US.

Mainstream coverage of transgender life is falling short, while transphobic propaganda on the right grows louder and more insistent every day. Assigned publishes factual, up to date, responsible coverage of that propaganda, allowing trans people and our allies to understand where the narratives come from, separate the truth from the lies, and build a response that achieves dignity and equality for trans people in the US and beyond.Assigned’s founder, Evan Urquhart, is a transgender journalist whose work has appeared on the Atlantic, Vanity Fair, Politico, NewNowNext, Truthout, Autostraddle, and Slate.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/01/2024 10:49

It's interesting that the poster chose that as a source. The Daily Mail, for all its failings, is a mainstream media source. I could post any number of GC blog posts or YouTube videos claiming all manner of interpretations.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 10:49

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 10:37

@Helleofabore

It is you who are here censoring women's media choices.

I AM NOT CENSORING ANYTHING.

For those hard of hearing in the back of the room.

Apologies. Censuring.

By the way, it is good that that is all you can say about the post. Thank you for correcting me.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 10:54

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/01/2024 10:45

This is why you and I even know about it.

This is absolutely not true.
I learned about this in 2017 after some threads on MN (and I consider myself a latecomer by MN standards) and then I investigated and was horrified.
The conservatives have grasped it after it was publicised by mostly left-wing women.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you're only noticing now that the conservatives have picked it up.
Maybe it's because the left-wing press and social media wouldn't allow any publicity? Why do you think that is?

I learned about it because I have a teen who was very much impacted by gender identity ideology. And then realised I had missed an issue that was harming women and girls and then I discovered MN and realised how big this issue was.

And most of my friends have discovered it through their teenagers, and then discussing it with other mothers. And THEN Laurel Hubbard. I doubt any of my friends read any 'RW' media at all.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/01/2024 10:57

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 10:54

I learned about it because I have a teen who was very much impacted by gender identity ideology. And then realised I had missed an issue that was harming women and girls and then I discovered MN and realised how big this issue was.

And most of my friends have discovered it through their teenagers, and then discussing it with other mothers. And THEN Laurel Hubbard. I doubt any of my friends read any 'RW' media at all.

I have an autistic daughter who competes in her sport at a high level. I don't think she should have to compete against males.

The fact that the left wing press haven't been championing Riley Gaines is very disappointing to me.

SinnerBoy · 24/01/2024 11:07

DrBalenciaga · Today 09:34

You're picking on my username now - are you linking me to child abuse? FFS.

I don't think that is the case that you are being linked, rather, it's a reference to the Balenciaga advertising campaign from last year, which used sexualised photos of children and references to paedophilia.

Were you aware of the case?

lifeturnsonadime · 24/01/2024 11:08

DrBalenciaga · 24/01/2024 09:43

@lifeturnsonadime

And that @DrBalenciaga is trying to use Gaine's political leanings to discredit her lived experience.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. It isn't Gaines' political leanings that is the issue. It is how the Conservative movement have seized upon this and other incidents like it and elevated it. This is why you and I even know about it. In a way, Republicans are using her for their own gain. This is not discrediting her lived experience.

What a shame the democrats didn't seize upon the unfairness to women.

They have somehow made it an open goal for the right.

And in the meantime women are harmed by males in single sex spaces.

It is the left that is the problem here.

SinnerBoy · 24/01/2024 11:09

I certainly believe Riley Gaines is telling the truth, for the reasons set out so eloquently by Helleofabore. She and other young women were exposed to a form of officially sanctioned sexual abuse, then bullied and coerced by the university.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 11:46

Let's look at the time line regarding women speaking out and Riley starting to speak out.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” the swimmer said. Thomas has reportedly told her teammates that she dates women.

The swimmer told the outlet that other team members have spoken to the team’s coaches about possibly getting Thomas to change elsewhere from the rest of the team, but those discussions haven’t gone anywhere.

“Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,” she said. “But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there’s nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.”

So, even before Riley spoke out there were already women complaining about being exposed to this male person's penis. ie. sexual abuse. They even reported back in January 2022 that their schools had told them to shut the fuck up and take that exposure. I remember the schools offered them counselling to 'get over the hurt of losing'.

By this stage, Thomas was under no illusions that they were not harming the female swimmers. Thomas could have chosen to act very differently. In fact, we are told (and I believe it) that the majority of male trans people would respect the needs of these women and would have found alternative places to change upon learning that they were harming women.

Thomas chose not to ask to have these alternative provisions made for them. At the meet that was only female swimmers, the male change rooms could have been unlocked and used. It seems obvious with all the information that has come out that that was not even considered.

Moving on.

Riley didn't tie with Lia Thomas until March 18th.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/18/sport/lia-thomas-ncaa-swimming-championships-spt/index.html

This interview that has been used to discredit Riley in that posted article link to Assignedmedia refers to a transcript of an interview in April 2022.

Given that these young women still had to finish their course work, and that I don't have a date for that April 2022 interview, that would have been less than 6 weeks after the event. I take it that some people think women should process their trauma within 6 weeks of a very busy time for them.

And by the way, she graduated from Kentucky University only AFTER that interview that is referred to in that article. So, while you might think this DrBalenciaga,

"That's an interesting take. She has deferred her dentistry studies to pursue feminist advocacy and Republican public relations, so there's no university studies happening anyway. I have considered this, and no, I don't think so."

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny for the question you posted it in answer to. Which was:

Have you considered she carefully worded her statement because she was still at university and felt she would jeopardise her place there if she deviated from that carefully curated position?

She was still at university when she gave that interview. So, you seem to have missed some pretty significant pieces of information in drawing your 'consideration'. Did you ever consider checking timelines ? No? Just taking that manipulative media at its word? Gosh....

Teammates say they are uncomfortable changing in locker room with trans UPenn swimmer Lia Thomas

Members of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swim team are uncomfortable changing in the locker room with transgender athlete Lia Thomas, according to a teammate.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

pickledandpuzzled · 24/01/2024 12:41

Jo Phoenix was saying the process of the tribunal was exactly comparable with giving testimony against her rapists years before.

The same tactics of undermining her reputation and truthfulness. Telling her it didn’t happen, she didn’t feel bad as a result, it wasn’t as bad as all that.

Everything Balenziaga has used against Riley.

I see you. And your pocket pets. The more you attempt to discredit other people, the more clearly you are seen, and the paucity of your arguments. Wag and point your finger somewhere else.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2024 12:55

Yes. Considering how Paula Scanlon was treated for her comments as a sexual assault survivor for the abusive nature of Thomas exposing their penis in the change room with women, watching women change and the very clear coerce that her university applied to shut down any public dissent, I can imagine how Jo Phoenix felt.

And apparently we are seeing it here on this thread. But apparently it is not discrediting Riley to post that article, it is just pointing out how her account of her trauma has changed and how it must be very suspicious....

The lack of coherency is becoming clear.

Whatever the intention of the poster, it seems to be that every woman's words should be carefully considered as to whether repeating them will amplify the bad people. What is consistent is that this is tactic that has been well used by activists and has great relevance here. But we are not allowed to mention it.

lifeturnsonadime · 24/01/2024 14:00

pickledandpuzzled · 24/01/2024 12:41

Jo Phoenix was saying the process of the tribunal was exactly comparable with giving testimony against her rapists years before.

The same tactics of undermining her reputation and truthfulness. Telling her it didn’t happen, she didn’t feel bad as a result, it wasn’t as bad as all that.

Everything Balenziaga has used against Riley.

I see you. And your pocket pets. The more you attempt to discredit other people, the more clearly you are seen, and the paucity of your arguments. Wag and point your finger somewhere else.

I listened to Woman's Hour yesterday the parallels are stark.

WaterHound · 24/01/2024 17:58

Bloody funny to see resident media expert DrBalenciaga using Assigned Media as a non biased and trustworthy news source whilst slagging off women who link to the Daily Mail! Couldn't make that one up. 😆

WaterHound · 24/01/2024 18:00

Also disappointing but unsurprising to see DrBalenciaga and ubiquity attacking women again for having boundaries and not worshipping at the altar of the Labour Party.

Some people really hate women with the wrong opinions don't they?

ubiquity · 24/01/2024 18:07

WaterHound · 24/01/2024 18:00

Also disappointing but unsurprising to see DrBalenciaga and ubiquity attacking women again for having boundaries and not worshipping at the altar of the Labour Party.

Some people really hate women with the wrong opinions don't they?

OK, care to expand on that? Do you really think the Tories have women's rights at heart and them staying in power for another term would improve the lives of women? Really?

I don't worship the Labour party but a change in Government seems absolutely essential after 14 years of ever-worsening living standards, which often hit women the hardest. Do you disagree with that? Funnily even many Tory supporters now agree. They need some time out...

WaterHound · 24/01/2024 18:12

Do you really think the Tories have women's rights at heart and them staying in power for another term would improve the lives of women? Really?

Does me not being a Labour supporter automatically mean that I am a Tory supporter in your world?

ubiquity · 24/01/2024 18:12

WaterHound · 24/01/2024 18:12

Do you really think the Tories have women's rights at heart and them staying in power for another term would improve the lives of women? Really?

Does me not being a Labour supporter automatically mean that I am a Tory supporter in your world?

No, and if you're not I'm really, really glad.

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