To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

I just don't have the words to express the contempt I feel for anyone who treats women in this way.

Context is everything.

Whatever happened to 'I believe her'?

I see. So again, only some posters are allowed to accuse other posters. And any pushback those posters receive is considered bullying? Even when those accusing posters have become abusive?

Good to know.

Well, from my perspective the bullying and even abusive behaviour and tone is on your side of the argument, but we can continue this back and forth forever, sharing endless examples of who is most abusive and try to catch each other out.

Or we could debate the actual issue.

Well, from my perspective the bullying and even abusive behaviour and tone is on your side of the argument

Yes it's funny, but my perspective is that exact opposite.

Maybe you, who has personally attacked posters on this thread might stop accusing people of bullying. Along with stop personally attacking others. Or don’t you think your posts calling people idiots are personal attacks?

If my previous post didn't make it clear, I'm not getting into this level of bickering. I'm sure we've all had our moments but nothing is going to be gained for either side of the argument by continuing this. So I'm not.

Then actually attempt to make a point in a civil fashion, @ubiquity without any sniping.

Or we could debate the actual issue.

So can you see the perspective on some of us on here that the article @DrBalenciaga posted to discredit Riley Gaines was worse in terms of manipulation and bias than any of the alleged 'right wing' press that we are accused of reading to form our bigoted opinions? As it is written for the purpose of trying to discredit without any mention of the context (which was that women were warned not to speak out because they would lose their funding and places on the team).

And that @DrBalenciaga is trying to use Gaine's political leanings to discredit her lived experience.

Do you not see the hypocrisy of this?

Sorry, I'm not really familiar with that particular case and don't have the time/headspace to look into it.

My main point was made a few pages back.

What IS your main point?

“But in the past, Gaines never told the story this way. Kristina Konwerski, a transgender writer, says she spoke with Gaines last April.”

This is from the article.

It was discussing an interview that Riley gave in April 2022 after swimming against Thomas that season. So Riley was still at university and gave the interview while still finishing that year’s
coursework. And that time, she was speaking to a trans person too. Plus expecting that interview to be released quickly as it was a substack so should likely have fast turnaround or it is reasonable to have that expectation when agreeing to the interview.

Also, Thomas has also given interviews and more information from other young women has become public since then too. So it also could be said that Thomas’ intentions have become clearer with the processing of additional information.

I suppose I could say 'read the thread' but here it is again:

My point here is really to try highlight the fact that the current Government are not going to improve the lives and rights of women, including Kemi Badenoch. It isn't just about this one issue, which, IMO, Labour has taken on board and is expressing a sensible way forward. However if they win this year there is of course no reason why GC feminists shouldn't continue to lobby for what they think is right and criticise the future Govt for what they think the Govt may be getting wrong.

My point is: life is dire for a lot of people, especially women, right now. And we need to get the Tories out as they are largely responsible for the current mess we're in.

But I have to do some work now so can't engage with this for the time being.

I see. So you, personally, are allowed to personally attack others and people are not allowed to point that out.

Excellent.

Isn’t it great that this is a public forum! For any readers wondering what this is all about, I suggest starting reading the thread at the beginning.

I suppose I could say 'read the thread' but here it is again:

You really can't do it without sniping, can you. Take your own advice. If your time is too valuable for this thread, that's fine. But if you pop on and off for drive by sneering you are going to get pushback.

I see. So you, personally, are allowed to personally attack others and people are not allowed to point that out.

Yeah, fuck that.

You could say that but then it would be pretty snippy which is the thing that you are telling us NOT to do.

I know you have cakes to bake, or whatever but do tell us how you know that life is dire for people especially 'women' when 'women' also includes 'men'?

And how has Labour taken this on board when they think that some women have penises? That is the opposite of 'taking it on board'.

Has the Witchfinder General Wes Streeting apologised to the women he held on a database as 'wrongthinkers' to oust them out of the party for example?

Ah so you don't wish to discuss 'the issues!'.

You just want to scold people with different viewpoints from yours.

I see.

The hypocrisy in posting that article link is pretty clear too. So other women need to be censured and patronised about posting media that is manipulative , including from mainstream media outlets.

Yet we are to take the view that this article using terms such as ‘anti-trans’, and calling a woman’s story about what happened to her ‘inflammatory’.

Are we to believe that this is the source that we should find reliable enough to post references from?

Are we seriously supposed to follow this example?

@OvaHere

You seem to want to give Riley the least flattering interpretation of her actions whilst seeking the most flattering one for Thomas - a man who started this by lying his way into the female swim team and locker room.

I can't say that I have - I expressly wrote that I would not want a trans swimmer in my change room and that I wasn't surprised that Gaines was horrified. How is that flattering?

“Yet we are to take the view that this article using terms such as ‘anti-trans’, and calling a woman’s story about what happened to her ‘inflammatory’”

should be

Yet we are to take the view that this article using terms such as ‘anti-trans’, and calling a woman’s story about what happened to her ‘inflammatory’, are considered to be acceptable. To be worthy of amplification.

And to add to that, that this amplification of this authors voice is to be considered more reliable than the victim’s account of the incident. Because people who some people don’t like have amplified the victim’s voice. Yet this article is acceptable and apparently highly valued.

You're picking on my username now - are you linking me to child abuse? FFS.

@lifeturnsonadime

And that @DrBalenciaga is trying to use Gaine's political leanings to discredit her lived experience.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. It isn't Gaines' political leanings that is the issue. It is how the Conservative movement have seized upon this and other incidents like it and elevated it. This is why you and I even know about it. In a way, Republicans are using her for their own gain. This is not discrediting her lived experience.

@Helleofabore

Are we to believe that this is the source that we should find reliable enough to post references from?

Are we seriously to believe I could ever post a source you would accept?

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clearer. It isn't Gaines' political leanings that is the issue.

Except it clearly is.