To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Link to live discussion for any lurkers

Another GC employment tribunal: Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #3 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4990903-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-3

This is not a thread to hawk other threads or websites.

It's not another website, it's this one 🙄 you don't own the site @TooBigForMyBoots

Do you tell posters who say "Lisa Nandy says she wants male rapists in female jails" that they need to add a bit about the fact that when Nandy expressed her opinion, the Tory government were actually putting rapists in women's prisons"?

You're familiar with how this site works.

Do you tell posters who say "Lisa Nandy says she wants male rapists in female jails" that they need to add a bit about the fact that when Nandy expressed her opinion, the Tory government were actually putting rapists in women's prisons"?

They were. They've changed that policy now thanks to feminist lobbying. You should probably mention that yourself. In the interests of accuracy.

It's the SNP government who are still putting sexually violent men into women's prisons.

Also, to come back to this, let's think for a second (as it's not just about this particular issue, which, IMHO is being blown way out of proportion in terms of any potential risk to the safety of women) who is more likely to seek to improve the everyday lives and rights of women across the board:

Lisa Nandy
Kemi Badenoch (who has rejected calls to make it illegal to discriminate against people going through the menopause, to give just one example)

Just look at MPs' voting records to give you an idea...

Cheers,

U

Any thoughts on whether criticism of Kemi Badenoch is racist yet, @ubiquity? As that's what you said about criticism of Dawn Butler.

And the amount of flak she gets is of course not at all racist.

Believe that was you?

Ereshkigalangcleg I have absolutely no doubt that Kemi Badenoch endures racism and I abhor that. However, if you're accusing me, please point to any post where I have been racist?

There are multiple posts criticising Kemi Badenoch. Someone criticised Butler upthread and you immediately alleged racism.

Im not calling you a racist, im calling out hypocrisy.

make it illegal to discriminate against people going through the menopause

Discrimination against women going through the menopause can be covered under the existing PCs of sex and disability.

Very happy to address your point. MPs, let alone Government Ministers (such as KB) are not, and should never be, above criticism, for how they vote, the policies they drive, the opinions they express etc. To criticise someone for their politics is not racist.

The jeering and ridiculing of Dawn Butler here and elsewhere, much like the ages-old hounding of Diane Abbott, has racist undertones, IMO.

But why do you think KB voted against it - I find that astounding (in KB), and very telling?

The jeering and ridiculing of Dawn Butler here and elsewhere, much like the ages-old hounding of Diane Abbott, has racist undertones, IMO.

IMO you are using the suggestion of "racism" in an entirely self serving way to dismiss women's views. As genderists so often do.

I don't think Dawn Butler is any more ridiculous than Lisa Nandy or Loyd Russell Moyle.

Just as an aside, you do know Lisa Nandy isn't white, don't you?

But why do you think KB voted against it - I find that astounding (in KB), and very telling?

A lot of women, rightly or wrongly, don't agree with pathologisjng the menopause in this way. They think it will be weaponised against women as a reason not to take them seriously. I can see both sides tbh.

Just as an aside, you do know Lisa Nandy isn't white, don't you?

No I didn't, and it doesn't change my view of her in any way.

IMO you are using the suggestion of "racism" in an entirely self serving way to dismiss women's views. As genderists so often do. I don't think I am. I'm very happy to debate the issue at hand. And you brought race into it now to try to water down my point about KB.

Im bringing it in as you personally brought it in to dismiss someone else who made a comment about Dawn Butler. But of course it's totally different when you do it.

A lot of women, rightly or wrongly, don't agree with pathologisjng the menopause in this way. It's hardly pathologising the menopause to try to introduce a law to protect women from menopause-related sex discrimination, which happens!

I've engaged with the point about KB and the menopause. I don't have anything else to add to it. But I don't like hypocrisy, which is why I commented on your post. I've had my say on it now 🤷‍♀️

It's hardly pathologising the menopause to try to introduce a law to protect women from menopause-related sex discrimination, which happens!

I agree it happens. You're arguing about it with the wrong person because I'm not sure what the best course of action is to legally protect women. But a lot of women on this site and in the wider population don't agree with your take, because they think it undermines women.

Fine.

My point here is really to try highlight the fact that the current Government are not going to improve the lives and rights of women, including Kemi Badenoch. It isn't just about this one issue, which, IMO, Labour has taken on board and is expressing a sensible way forward. However if they win this year there is of course no reason why GC feminists shouldn't continue to lobby for what they think is right and criticise the future Govt for what they think the Govt may be getting wrong.

My point is: life is dire for a lot of people, especially women, right now. And we need to get the Tories out as they are largely responsible for the current mess we're in.