Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

So, gender is being used to refer to a deeply held, meaningful belief for an individual, that is nothing at all to do with biological sex and also nothing at all to do with gender expression, gender presentation or any other externally observable behaviour. But is, for some reason, expressed as male/female or man/woman, or any of the other neo-gender variants.

Why is that something that is important, and should replace the use of biological sex to categorise and separate people on the occasions that it is necessary and appropriate to do so?

I don’t think you should believe it’s “more important” than biological sex. Why would I try to persuade you of that? Both are important.

If you want me to believe that TW are being badly treated you need to explain why we need spaces separated by gender. If you choose not to, I will assume you have no argument. I am asking in good faith and this is central to the discussions. Why should I as a biological women with no gender identity who is somewhat gender non conforming, feel more comfortable with a tw than any other male in my space? why?

I don’t think you should believe it’s “more important” than biological sex. Why would I try to persuade you of that? Both are important.

What are you actually saying then? If you are advocating for female only spaces, sports and services to be accessible to males on the basis of gender identity rather than sex, you do consider it more important, don't you?

that is nothing at all to do with biological sex and also nothing at all to do with gender expression, gender presentation or any other externally observable behaviour. But is, for some reason, expressed as male/female or man/woman, or any of the other neo-gender variants

we are going round in circles! I would absolutely not claim that gender identity has “nothing at all to do with biological sex” . I also wouldn’t claim it has nothing to do with gender expression. This would be very wrong and very stupid. Again. There is a middle ground between “nothing at all to do with” and “absolutely the same as/ determined by”. As with so many complex issues, The middle space is where we need to be.

I replied before your edit that added the second paragraph @Tandora

"I am a woman" refers to biological sex. That's all. It's not a statement about gender, whether that's the ineffable identity version or the expression, presentation variety.

And again, what is "the middle space"?

This.

Yes, no one can change sex. No man can ever become a woman. Call me whatever you like...sticks and stones and all that.

So, Tandora, are you telling me I'm not a woman because I don't have a gender identity?

None of the brave soldiers who have popped in to call us names and then flounced and hid the thread have yet been able to offer any reasons why I should share their gender identity beliefs.

I'll give @Tandora the credit that she's at least responding, even if she doesn't make any convincing points.

So what is "gender identity" to do with? How does one know what combination of biological characteristics, expression, presentation, behaviour constitutes a female gender identity, and which makes for a male gender identity?

What situations is it important to prioritise gender identity over everything else?

When is biological sex the only factor that should be considered?

What happens if someone reports not having any concept of a gender identity? How are they then meant to be included in your ideal society?

Tandora's refusal to answer speaks volumes.

Give her a chance... I'm happy that someone is sticking around to discuss this without becoming abusive.

I actually haven’t said anything at all about female only spaces.
This is a policy question which is separate to questions around definitions of sex/gender, whether “TW are women” and whether being trans is best described as made up personal ideology, or a valid and real aspect of human diversity.

I would like to have a conversation about female-only spaces , but it’s impossible to do this on the terms set by people here, which is being a woman = being born with a vagina, no exceptions, TW who don’t share my absolute definitions of sex/gender and who want to be accepted into women’s spaces are abusive, male supremacists who want women to know their place and serve them.

I’m not disagreeing that this is absurd.

I’m just saying that this guy is a very very small minority in the scheme of men who abuse so I just feel that the concentration on this topic within feminism atm is disproportionate to the threat.

At the moment, trans women are allowed in refuges etc right? And how many cases of them abusing women are there? In comparison to straight men abusing women in their houses, on the streets, wherever they get the chance?

Do I think men who wake up and put on a dress should be allowed to live in a women’s refuge? Of course not…but do I think this is the most pressing issue in feminism right now? From what I see actually happening? No…

Thank you , i really appreciate that. ❤️

Yes a lot are. Most have inability to grasp that transexuals have existed for many many years and that it is a very real thing but they will froth at the mouth worrying about other peoples genitals calling it biology (as if the trans community aren't aware of this). Live and let live.

@Bex5490 The point is how does one tell the difference? And men being allowed to become women just by saying so is a really fucking big danger to feminism is it not?!

Any discussion around female only spaces which tries to force women to accept people born without a vagina is not a conversation about female only spaces, is it? that's the whole point. the policy question can't be separated out from definitions because policies need definitions to make sense.

Of course. Just stay out of spaces and sports that are not for them. It's quite simple.

I’m just saying that this guy is a very very small minority in the scheme of men who abuse so I just feel that the concentration on this topic within feminism atm is disproportionate to the threat

I don't think you fully understand the threat though.

Once that floodgate is well and truly open, how do you stop it? How do you keep opportunistic men out of women's spaces? How do you fight for the rights of a group of people you are not allowed to define simply by sex? You think things are bad now ...

Even in small numbers, the implications can be significant. One 'TW' in a women's prison can cause a lot of suffering.

Well how about males stop using their genitals to harm females and then it won't be such an issue?

"I actually haven’t said anything at all about female only spaces.
This is a policy question which is separate to questions around definitions of sex/gender, whether “TW are women” and whether being trans is best described as made up personal ideology, or a valid and real aspect of human diversity."

The problem is that policy is what protects and determines protections for women, and policy requires definitions in order to be consistent and coherent. Hence why all the recent political wranglings such as the UK govt overriding the Scottish parliament's vote to make it easier to change their legal sex.

I am totally happy to accept that trans identity is a real aspect of human diversity. Of course it is, because people who have a trans identity clearly exist, and it is meaningful for them. But definitions of sex and gender, the words woman/man, are tightly bound to policy making and are important when it comes to defending women's sex-based rights.