Help me settle disagreement with DH?

[sssf24]

This is a little lighthearted and obviously not a hugely relationship ending issue, but it's irked me enough to want to post here to gain some perspective.

This afternoon our just turned 3 year old DD was playing with dolls from a doll house, and was role playing mummy had hurt herself. She then said "daddy look after mummy", and role played the daddy comforting mummy etc. I said "aw is daddy going to look after the baby while mummy gets better?" and DD was like yeah... etc.

I then lightheartedly said to DH, who was in the room so overhearing this interaction I had with our daughter: "I think it's important to teach her that mums should be looked after when they're not well too, and that Daddy should step up when mummy is unwell and look after baby... Last think I want for her is to feel the pressure to conform to society's expectations of women when she's older, like I felt" - or words to that effect. But my message being - I'm role playing this with her so she gets the message from a young age about societal imposed gender roles and expectations of women, hoping to dispel some of that for her (if that makes any sense).

DH then commented back "yes but she's barely just turned 3, what's the point?" I replied I didn't think it was ever too young to teach her that she doesn't need to martyr herself as a woman simply because society expects it. I said I thought it was an important lesson, just as important as her learning colours or numbers.

DH then said he didn't think society imposed such messages. I said he was wrong in my lived experience as a woman, and he was invalidating that. I asked him how could he possibly know, as a male, what the lived experience of a woman was? I said he's wrong and society does give such messages to women and that men are generally in a more privileged position in many ways.

He then rolled his eyes a bit and said, "and I'm sure women are more privileged than men too in lots of ways." I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. He replied "well I can't right now but if I did some research I'm sure I'd find a few".

He also then made a (ridiculous in my opinion) throwaway comment that "next you'll be teaching her "they/them" pronouns". I was a bit confused here and replied I wasn't sure what on earth "they/them pronouns" have to do with the message I was indeed trying to convey to her? That part was very odd.

That was pretty much the end of the discussion and although it was a lighthearted back and forth on the back of an innocent interaction with out child, I honestly felt quite invalidated by him, and that he just doesn't "get it". Which makes me sad considering we have a daughter to raise together.

So I suppose my AIBU is in 3 parts:

1. AIBU to feel a bit invalidated as a woman after this interaction?

2. Can anyone shed any light on what on earth the "they/them" pronoun issue has to do with anything I was saying?

3. Is DH correct that there are ways women are more advantages than men in society? If so what are these? (I couldn't bring any to mind and neither could he!)

One of my DHs biggest green flags is he is so aware of the responsibility for him to learn about women’s lives experiences in order to help him raise a daughter.

I love this. Good for him.

What’s the point? He’ll still just be told when it suits that he can never understand a woman’s lived experience.

I think the being given hundreds of examples would be enough to finish most of us, male or female. What a fun conversation while child presumably carries on playing.

Exactly. You can also hear the attitude of men's lives not actually mattering on the news about Gaza, women were killed, children were killed. So the remaining how many thousands were men? Probably but not worth actually mentioning.

I think the being given hundreds of examples would be enough to finish most of us

You misunderstand. I didn't give him hundreds of examples there and then.

I said, "ok you give me an example then before I list literally hundreds of examples of the opposite"

I said that sentence to him - I didn't provide the examples🤦🏼‍♀️ Jesus, we'd have still been sat there at midnight wouldn't we 😂

What a fun conversation while child presumably carries on playing.

We have many types of conversation - fun ones where we are both belly laughing; more serious ones about life / world events; piss taking ones where we laugh light heartedly at each other's quirks; emotional heart to heart ones; boring but necessarily"let's do a shopping list / decide what's for tea" ones; and annoyed at each other and needing to sort out problems between us , ones... you get the picture. We have the whole range of conversations. Much like, well, many other couples I imagine.

It's not always fun, is it. But neither is it always serious. It's somewhere in between in most healthy relationships I imagine.

I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument

I can see how this was open to misinterpretation, however - I didn't phrase it clearly enough.

This should read: I laughed and said, "ok then, name me one example, before I list hundreds to support my argument".

Amused at the idea that I sat and reeled off hundreds of examples 😂😂

"I think it's important to teach her that mums should be looked after when they're not well too, and that Daddy should step up when mummy is unwell and look after baby... Last think I want for her is to feel the pressure to conform to society's expectations of women when she's older, like I felt"

I think it was the 'too' and the 'step up' part that I have trouble with, I'm not quite sure what message you're trying to convey, and I'm a middle aged woman.

I don't understand why you would be teaching her that daddy only has to 'step up' to look after the baby when mummy is too unwell to do it? or that mummy wouldn't normally be looked after when she's ill? When really, as a family, you should all take care of each other all the time, no matter the circumstances. I can't speak for your lived experiences, but I'd say 3 is far too young for her to understand anything about what you're saying, so really the lecture about society's expectations and your lived experience of it was for your DH benefit and delivered in weird a passive aggressive way it got him on the defensive.

She was already modelling the behaviour that daddy was comforting mummy, so I personally don't think you should have took that moment as a teaching opportunity, apart from to affirm how nice it was that they were looking after each other when they we're hurt, and certainly not using it to pick a fight with your DH over it.

Why do you need to teach her about society's expectations of women at all?

She was already modelling the behaviour that daddy was comforting mummy, so I personally don't think you should have took that moment as a teaching opportunity, apart from to affirm how nice it was that they were looking after each other when they we're hurt, and certainly not using it to pick a fight with your DH over it.

I've already answered this earlier.
I was NOT trying to pick a fight with DH. But as I have repeatedly stated - I can see how he felt that I was, and I accepted that the context was not the best for me to raise this discussion. In fact, I accepted that within my very first reply to the first poster on this thread, who pointed out the same.

Why do you need to teach her about society's expectations of women at all?

Because I don't want her to ever feel that she has to conform to them. I want her to understand equality and not end up feeling as though, simply because she's female she needs to just crack on with everything without question. Basically - I don't want her to feel the expectations and pressures I've felt at points in my life, which I believe strongly I wouldn't have felt as a man.

And whilst I accept that at age 3, this isn't the prime time to be teaching those lessons, I absolutely won't apologise for wanting to teach her those lessons at some point, as a female.

I disagree that 3 is too young. I think you have to bake in certain expectations and norms from the day they're born basically, because there are a lot of messages and expectations that they will get "out there" that are not supportive of women and girls in the same way.

So don't let people tell you that you shouldn't be thinking about this stuff from day 1. That's just another way to say, "women's issues just aren't THAT important, so let's park them for a while."

eg clothes - not quite in the area you've been talking about on here. But next time you take your DD to a toddler group, take a look at the clothes they're all wearing. I can pretty much guarantee that the girls will be wearing leggings/tights and the boys will be wearing trackies or trousers. Nothing intrinsically wrong with EITHER option, and certainly I've never felt either option is inappropriate for 3 year olds, but I also wonder what we are teaching girls about what is "normal" ie that fitted clothes are normal and casual and everyday? And then, when they're wearing super skinny, tight clothes when they're older ,we tell ourselves, "it's empowering. it's their choice" without thinking about the messages we imprinted on them from day 1.

Well you said, I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. To me that sounds like you listed hundreds of examples to support your argument which made me feel sorry for him and the 3 year olds listening to you.

I'm not sure it was misinterpreted, more you didn't actually say what you meant. Saying you want him to do something before you do something does suggest you are going to do that thing, I mean you weren't saying you could list hundreds.

"Well you said, I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. To me that sounds like you listed hundreds of examples to support your argument which made me feel sorry for him and the 3 year olds listening to you."

Oh come on, I can totally see why OP's original sentence was taken the wrong way - she did, as she has admitted, phrase it badly. But you don't have to be a genius to see that it COULD read the way she really meant.

It's really just about punctuation:

eg I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument.
vs
I laughed and asked him to "name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument".

Yes, exactly this - thank you!

Just a case of missing punctuation folks. Let's L all calm down 😂

@sssf24 missed punctuation, typos?

🤔

It's never too young to teach a child about the imbalance of the sexes, or rather how to overcome this imbalance.

Related to this is the following, regarding establishing female autonomy over one's body:
One thing I have noticed among a couple of male acquaintances is that they seem to think that to keep tickling a child (their own daughters) at aged 2, when the child clearly wants them to stop, is their right as an adult/father/family friend.

I clearly remember someone doing this to me when I was a small child, and how I hated it, but of course couldn't help laughing with helpless laughter because of the tickling, which had gone on too long to be enjoyable.

@kisstheblarney

Yes. Do you need me to explain what they are, or.....? I assumed that was self explanatory.

My OP has 12 paragraphs. Very easily done.

It wasn't your OP when you name change failed though ...... remember? If you read back through your posts, I can't be bothered to find it for you!

@kisstheblarney

Nah, don't gaslight me. We already did the name change fail nonsense.

Kindly ..... bore off.

Another PA remark..... your poor DH!

I* disagree that 3 is too young. I think you have to bake in certain expectations and norms from the day they're born basically, because there are a lot of messages and expectations that they will get "out there" that are not supportive of women and girls in the same way.

So don't let people tell you that you shouldn't be thinking about this stuff from day 1. That's just another way to say, "women's issues just aren't THAT important, so let's park them for a while."*

Really good points, thank you

@sssf24 not sure if you noticed my post at 14.07, as it was just before yours of the same time, and then you were replying to kisstheblarney for the next few posts.

Yesterday you said that you would apologise to him if he took it as a personal attack, when it wasn't meant as one. Did you get the chance to and is it all cleared up between you two now?