Help me settle disagreement with DH?

[sssf24]

This is a little lighthearted and obviously not a hugely relationship ending issue, but it's irked me enough to want to post here to gain some perspective.

This afternoon our just turned 3 year old DD was playing with dolls from a doll house, and was role playing mummy had hurt herself. She then said "daddy look after mummy", and role played the daddy comforting mummy etc. I said "aw is daddy going to look after the baby while mummy gets better?" and DD was like yeah... etc.

I then lightheartedly said to DH, who was in the room so overhearing this interaction I had with our daughter: "I think it's important to teach her that mums should be looked after when they're not well too, and that Daddy should step up when mummy is unwell and look after baby... Last think I want for her is to feel the pressure to conform to society's expectations of women when she's older, like I felt" - or words to that effect. But my message being - I'm role playing this with her so she gets the message from a young age about societal imposed gender roles and expectations of women, hoping to dispel some of that for her (if that makes any sense).

DH then commented back "yes but she's barely just turned 3, what's the point?" I replied I didn't think it was ever too young to teach her that she doesn't need to martyr herself as a woman simply because society expects it. I said I thought it was an important lesson, just as important as her learning colours or numbers.

DH then said he didn't think society imposed such messages. I said he was wrong in my lived experience as a woman, and he was invalidating that. I asked him how could he possibly know, as a male, what the lived experience of a woman was? I said he's wrong and society does give such messages to women and that men are generally in a more privileged position in many ways.

He then rolled his eyes a bit and said, "and I'm sure women are more privileged than men too in lots of ways." I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. He replied "well I can't right now but if I did some research I'm sure I'd find a few".

He also then made a (ridiculous in my opinion) throwaway comment that "next you'll be teaching her "they/them" pronouns". I was a bit confused here and replied I wasn't sure what on earth "they/them pronouns" have to do with the message I was indeed trying to convey to her? That part was very odd.

That was pretty much the end of the discussion and although it was a lighthearted back and forth on the back of an innocent interaction with out child, I honestly felt quite invalidated by him, and that he just doesn't "get it". Which makes me sad considering we have a daughter to raise together.

So I suppose my AIBU is in 3 parts:

1. AIBU to feel a bit invalidated as a woman after this interaction?

2. Can anyone shed any light on what on earth the "they/them" pronoun issue has to do with anything I was saying?

3. Is DH correct that there are ways women are more advantages than men in society? If so what are these? (I couldn't bring any to mind and neither could he!)

@SleepingStandingUp

Cos it was so seemingly blatant I thought the discussion was going to be him moaning about you talking about him to DD like that.

I was not talking to DD about him, though. I was role playing with DD, and then I turned to DH to have a discussion about the role play.

I'm not sure where you took that I was talking to our 3 year old about her father?

AIBU to feel a bit invalidated as a woman after this interaction?
No, the way you feel is the way you feel at the end of the day.

Can anyone shed any light on what on earth the "they/them" pronoun issue has to do with anything I was saying?
Your DH viewed what you were saying as very "woke", pronouns etc fall into this category.

Is DH correct that there are ways women are more advantages than men in society? If so what are these? (I couldn't bring any to mind and neither could he!)
Yes, he is right - and I'm quite shocked he couldn't think of any to be honest!
Family court scenario's being the most obvious to my mind.
(Please note, this is NOT supposed to be an MRA take, far from it. But I've seen many times over women who are no longer with the father of their baby refuse access simply because they have a new partner and it's not convenient. Pretending this doesn't exist/happen is really unfair especially when Jeremy Kyle was on TV for so long frequently displaying this.)
Another would be being taken seriously re; mental health support. I believe the leading CoD for men under 50 currently is suicide unless I'm mistaken?

I think if you want your daughter to know that “mummy should be looked after by daddy” then the best way for that is for her to observe that in real life from her real mummy and daddy rather than via dolls. If the situation played out like you have written it- you came across passive aggressive (intentionally or not) and DH was defensive.

I'd be absolutely fuming at what he said. It's totally invalidating and snacks of misogyny.

But I'm curious about what made you feel so keen to make the point to him in that moment about your desire (which I totally agree with) to model equitable gender roles to your child through play. (Anyone who thinks a 3 year old is too young to absorb sexism is just wildly naive.) It feels quite heavy handed. Does it call back to an ongoing sense of resentment or fear that he isn't on the same page as you about gender roles and equality? If so this probably wasn't the place or time or way to raise that.

Giving the benefit of the doubt I'd think DH is thinking
Well you have a great job, you out earn me so you're not hitting some female glass ceiling, you're not being kept at home to tend to my needs and having a child hasn't hindered your good career. Ido my share of the housework, the childcare etc so your not oppressed on the home. Even that specific example about sickness and caring, that's how it works in our home so why do you feel you're being oppressed? What an I meant to be doing wrong?

So looking at it very narrow and singular in focus.

@SleepingStandingUp

Yes, all valid points.

Again, it wasn't intended as personal criticism of DH precisely for all those reasons you listed. It was a criticism of society in general and the expectations placed upon women (and mothers). I do however see, as I've said repeatedly now, how it may have been misconstrued by DH as personal dig.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude here - But did we not all collectively see the reporting of men not being allowed to leave Ukraine when the war there started....?????
I'm like 80% sure I remember seeing/hearing reporting of that?

Does it call back to an ongoing sense of resentment or fear that he isn't on the same page as you about gender roles and equality?

Hmmm. Possibly, in part? I hadn't thought of it like that.

If so this probably wasn't the place or time or way to raise that.

Agreed - I acknowledged that part quite early on in the thread.

I worry for my son. He hasn’t a sexist bone in his body and isn’t responsible for anything any arsehole man has ever done. But he’s going to grow up being told he’s privileged because he’s (gasp) white and (gasp) male. People won’t know he has hidden disabilities.

previous generations of males were undoubtedly very privileged but in my working years it’s not something I have seen in any walk of life really. The world has changed enormously and hugely for the better. Yet the current generation of young fathers have privilege hung around their necks and even the very best ones are never quite good enough and regularly told they are privileged to keep them down. Even if they do everything right, they are still wrong if they happen to white and male.

it’s going to be worse for the next generation and will cause a lot of division in society.

I had these conversations with my partner before agreeing to have a baby together, because I wouldn't consider it morally acceptable to have a child with someone who could possibly come out with the disturbing and unpleasant comments your DH made.

It's worrying that a female child could grow up with a dad who would dismiss and minimise the sexism and misogyny she's almost certainly going to be up against.

@Westernesse

So what was it that I’ve said here in this thread that you take issue with?

I've either quoted your comments and replied to them as I've seen them, and explained why or how I take issue with them, or I've quoted your username and done the same, as the the add has moved along. Scrolling back to read those replies should make it clear to you specifically what I've taken issue with that you've said, and why. I'm sorry but I don't have the energy to repost all my previous replies to you.

*as the thread has moved along

oh, ok. I only saw you jumping in with that other poster making digs. I didn’t see you actually engage with anything.

Yes, I found that shocking, and was confused as to why the women were leaving: surely the country needed all the people possible to defend it?

I didn’t see you actually engage with anything.

Then you didn't pay close enough attention. That's not on me.

Well given lots of us on this thread thought it was a PA moan about him, I don't think it's a huge leap he did room. I know you weren't, you've said. I know you've said compared to your friends awful partners he's decent. But my guess would be he THOUGHT you were. Because you were telling her what she already knows. She's already learnt that but you told your DJ you thought you should teach it her. You felt you had to teach her Daddy should step up, even thought Daddy does so she knows. You don't want her to have to confirm like you do, reinforcing the point to him that you have to conform against your will and inferring that part of that is his fault,as one of the men most in a position to oppress you.

Rather than you saying oh we've taught her well, she already knows x, y, z. She won't have to learn it the hard way I had to.

@SpicyMoth

did we not all collectively see the reporting of men not being allowed to leave Ukraine when the war there started....?????

That's appalling. Truly.

@SleepingStandingUp

All good points - duly noted.

They didn’t fancy it, just as they don’t fancy working as car mechanics or digging roads.

When there is a real test, equality only applies when it suits. 50/50 numbers are demanded in the boardroom and jobs involving a laptop but not for laying patios or working as plumbers.

Convenient.

@Westernesse

'Convenient' that it is not my responsibility how much attention a poster on my thread pays to the replies I give them? Eh?

That is absolutely not my responsibility, is it? I've engaged with you on this thread and replied where I've seen fit - the fact that you have missed those replies by your own admission is not my issue.

They're still there for you to read should you wish to - it's up to you whether you do that or not. But I will not repeat my previous posts for anyone who can't be arsed to either read all my replies, or keep up with my replies to their comments.

Please now stop derailing my thread with a pointless back and forth.

My impression is that he lumps equality for women (especially with regard to relationships/parenting), in with the current woke gender debate, for the purpose of dismissing them both as irrelevant nonsense.

That is what you picked up on, I think. You were rightly annoyed when he also insisted that he must know better about women's lives than they themselves do.

@SequentialAnalyst
Yes! Thank you. You've captured the essence of it really well there.

Or, more likely, he was just doing that in the heat of the moment because he felt you were attacking him for things you actually acknowledge that he does not do.

I think you were just verbalising to him what a lot of us do when playing with children. There are meanings behind play and often we are teaching about our values.

Yes, this was the angle of it initially.