Help me settle disagreement with DH?

[sssf24]

This is a little lighthearted and obviously not a hugely relationship ending issue, but it's irked me enough to want to post here to gain some perspective.

This afternoon our just turned 3 year old DD was playing with dolls from a doll house, and was role playing mummy had hurt herself. She then said "daddy look after mummy", and role played the daddy comforting mummy etc. I said "aw is daddy going to look after the baby while mummy gets better?" and DD was like yeah... etc.

I then lightheartedly said to DH, who was in the room so overhearing this interaction I had with our daughter: "I think it's important to teach her that mums should be looked after when they're not well too, and that Daddy should step up when mummy is unwell and look after baby... Last think I want for her is to feel the pressure to conform to society's expectations of women when she's older, like I felt" - or words to that effect. But my message being - I'm role playing this with her so she gets the message from a young age about societal imposed gender roles and expectations of women, hoping to dispel some of that for her (if that makes any sense).

DH then commented back "yes but she's barely just turned 3, what's the point?" I replied I didn't think it was ever too young to teach her that she doesn't need to martyr herself as a woman simply because society expects it. I said I thought it was an important lesson, just as important as her learning colours or numbers.

DH then said he didn't think society imposed such messages. I said he was wrong in my lived experience as a woman, and he was invalidating that. I asked him how could he possibly know, as a male, what the lived experience of a woman was? I said he's wrong and society does give such messages to women and that men are generally in a more privileged position in many ways.

He then rolled his eyes a bit and said, "and I'm sure women are more privileged than men too in lots of ways." I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. He replied "well I can't right now but if I did some research I'm sure I'd find a few".

He also then made a (ridiculous in my opinion) throwaway comment that "next you'll be teaching her "they/them" pronouns". I was a bit confused here and replied I wasn't sure what on earth "they/them pronouns" have to do with the message I was indeed trying to convey to her? That part was very odd.

That was pretty much the end of the discussion and although it was a lighthearted back and forth on the back of an innocent interaction with out child, I honestly felt quite invalidated by him, and that he just doesn't "get it". Which makes me sad considering we have a daughter to raise together.

So I suppose my AIBU is in 3 parts:

1. AIBU to feel a bit invalidated as a woman after this interaction?

2. Can anyone shed any light on what on earth the "they/them" pronoun issue has to do with anything I was saying?

3. Is DH correct that there are ways women are more advantages than men in society? If so what are these? (I couldn't bring any to mind and neither could he!)

It's sneery and passive aggressive.

If you carry on like that she learn soon enough that smiling whilst disagreeing with someone is actually full of contempt. She's 3 years, not 3 months.

Exactly.....

So not important to teach her from a young age then?

containing emotions isn’t healthy.

Literally couldn't disagree more strongly with a statement.

Suppressing and never dealing with emotions, is unhealthy. I do not do this nor do I advocate doing this (I actually make a living from encouraging the opposite, ironically!)

But containment of emotions is not the same as suppressing them. It's regulating them sufficiently in the moment so as not to let them overwhelm either yourself or others, and then processing or dealing with how they've made you feel at a later point. It's literally a skill I need daily, as do many others.

After all, imagine the mess society would be in if we didn't at some time all have to regulate and contain our immediate emotional responses to situations... We'd all be screaming aggressively in supermarkets and public transport and god knows where, wouldn't we.

We all use this skill daily. Emotional containment is healthy, in certain situations. And it is not the same as emotional suppression.

“I said he was wrong in my lived experience as a woman, and he was invalidating that. I asked him how could he possibly know, as a male, what the lived experience of a woman was?”

I refuse to engage with anyone who uses these kind of arguments. It’s pedantic sophistry because the equivalent logic is never, ever applied in the other direction because it doesn’t suit.

Regardless of the topic, whether it be sex, race, disability etc, discourse such as that is a debating trick to invalidate and silence the other person. It is weapons grade gaslighting.

women comment routinely on the lived experience of men and I wouldn’t imagine you have any problem with that at all.

People like to stack the deck to suit themselves.

@Westernesse why does this fact upset you so much?

It’s a basic fact a man will never understand what it’s like to live as a woman in a patriarchal society.

It’s a fact, as a white woman I’ll never fully understand how hard it is for black men or women in a majority white country

Its quite a well known and understood issue that full empathy does rely on experience

Men and women have advantages and disadvantages in different ways. What we tend to do is compare the most privileged men against the average women.

Yes there are ways men have it worse. I'm surprised neither of you could think of one thing. There's several obvious ones that spring to mind:

• Men are more likely to commit suicide (suggesting something going wrong with how we manage men's mental health at the very least)

• Men more likely to die at work (dangerous jobs are far and away more likely to be held by men eg oil rig work, deep sea diving, logging, fishing, construction etc)

• Men are more likely to be murdered (and die earlier in general)

• Boys lag behind girls in every educational level, are more likely to be excluded from school and less likely to achieve a degree

• Far more men than women are homeless

Yes I could write a list for women too but that's the point. The tit for tat bullshit and insistence women have it the absolute worse is just toxic and needs to stop. Humans have a hard time, period. I'm not surprised he got annoyed, and the lived experience/invalidating my experience argument is a total non argument as it shuts down the conversation on the tenuous basis that no one can ever understand anyone else or stand in their shoes. Like empathy or intelligence doesn't exist.

It's not a bad message for your daughter per se but jesus you went on. You were out of order from start to finish OP.

women comment routinely on the lived experience of men and I wouldn’t imagine you have any problem with that at all.

Eh??? What an odd assumption to make about me.

The situation was as I described it and so why would I be concerned with the lived experience of men when it wasn't relevant to the situation?
The situation and conversation that arose was specifically about the opposite.

If DH had said "this is my lived experience as a man" and I replied "no it's not, I'm off to google why you're wrong", that would be equally wrong of me and I'd be invalidating of him if I did it. And therefore I wouldn't.

He probably would t say that to you because, as I’ve said, it is a trick. It’s a catchphrase which stifles rather than expands discussion. And it’s a very self indulgent sentiment. It’s also insulting to the other person, regardless of topic.

Well tacit in the assumption that, unless women are taught to stand up for themselves, their male partners won't step in and help is a comment on male behaviour and therefore male lived experience. He may have felt defensive as he may not feel that ignoring his female partners needs is his lived experience.

See how the lived experience thing is all just circular?

@Blueey its not that women have it worse, it’s that 90% of the issues women face are because of men.

Men also contribute to other men’s suffering

so men are kind of the issue tbh

If you have empathy and any level of intelligence you can understand another person’s point of view. To an extent.

Nobody can truly put themselves in another person’s shoes. The idea of “you can’t comment or disagree with me because you don’t know my lived experience” is just dogmatic garbage which, carried to its logical conclusion would mean that no idea can ever be discussed.

I'm not surprised he got annoyed, and the lived experience/invalidating my experience argument is a total non argument as it shuts down the conversation on the tenuous basis that no one can ever understand anyone else or stand in their shoes. Like empathy or intelligence doesn't exist.

No - I've explained this already.

He said my experience was not what it was and he would Google examples as to why.

That's invalidating as the only person who knows my lived experience is me.

And so, had he said something like "I don't understand that first hand obviously because I'm not a woman, but I get that it's like that for you...", or similar, then that would have been a clear message of "I understand, or I'm at least attempting to", etc.

That's my point. I'm not suggesting a person has to have an identical lived experience to another to try to understand or empathise. Of course I don't think that. There are many things in life I've never experienced first hand but empathy enables me to have a pretty good idea that it would be awful to go through, etc. and that's my point - DH didn't express any of that. He just basically said to me: "you're wrong".

The idea of “you can’t comment or disagree with me because you don’t know my lived experience” is just dogmatic garbage

Right, and where did I say these exact words to
DH?

Maybe today he just thought you were talking shite? It’s allowed.

I said I was annoyed that he told me my lived experience was incorrect. Rather than say, yeah I have no idea being a man obviously but I believe you and it sounds shit, or whatever.

@Westernesse ecactly, to an extent.

Facts are a man will never, ever, truly understand what it’s like to be a woman living in a patriarchal society.

Most good men understand this, accept this and try to learn from women about this issue. The OPs DH didn’t do that. He decided to tell her she was wrong for her own, lived experiences.

Maybe today she was talking shite because she had her back up. We all do it.

if someone says something is their lived experience and they are using it to hit me over the head, if I think they are talking shite I will disagree.

*It’s a basic fact a man will never understand what it’s like to live as a woman in a patriarchal society.

It’s a fact, as a white woman I’ll never fully understand how hard it is for black men or women in a majority white country*

I made a similar point earlier. As a shire woman, I will equally never understand first hand the challenges facing block women (or men).

But if someone described them to me based on first hand experience, I'd have enough about me, being in a more privileged position, to acknowledge that whilst I don't know personally what that's like, it sounds awful and I'm sorry they experience it, etc.

I think the big advantage for women in many cultures is men being conscripted or just expected to fight and risk their lives in wars (e.g. Ukraine.) I can't imagine all men want to do a Rambo but somehow it is expected. Some women want to fight but I think it is more of a personal choice for women.

@Westernesse but why would you disagree with someone’s lived experience?

Its simply illogical and a bit stupid

Sorry - bold fail! Was quoting @Annacondas there.

*white woman! Not shire woman

If sure if husbands the world over started telling their wives that they were invalidating men’s lived experiences whenever the wife disagreed, that would go down just great and be totally respected. 😆

Ironically, however, DH is ex army and his years in the military were some of the best of his life, by his own admission!

But I take the overall point of course.