Help me settle disagreement with DH?

[sssf24]

This is a little lighthearted and obviously not a hugely relationship ending issue, but it's irked me enough to want to post here to gain some perspective.

This afternoon our just turned 3 year old DD was playing with dolls from a doll house, and was role playing mummy had hurt herself. She then said "daddy look after mummy", and role played the daddy comforting mummy etc. I said "aw is daddy going to look after the baby while mummy gets better?" and DD was like yeah... etc.

I then lightheartedly said to DH, who was in the room so overhearing this interaction I had with our daughter: "I think it's important to teach her that mums should be looked after when they're not well too, and that Daddy should step up when mummy is unwell and look after baby... Last think I want for her is to feel the pressure to conform to society's expectations of women when she's older, like I felt" - or words to that effect. But my message being - I'm role playing this with her so she gets the message from a young age about societal imposed gender roles and expectations of women, hoping to dispel some of that for her (if that makes any sense).

DH then commented back "yes but she's barely just turned 3, what's the point?" I replied I didn't think it was ever too young to teach her that she doesn't need to martyr herself as a woman simply because society expects it. I said I thought it was an important lesson, just as important as her learning colours or numbers.

DH then said he didn't think society imposed such messages. I said he was wrong in my lived experience as a woman, and he was invalidating that. I asked him how could he possibly know, as a male, what the lived experience of a woman was? I said he's wrong and society does give such messages to women and that men are generally in a more privileged position in many ways.

He then rolled his eyes a bit and said, "and I'm sure women are more privileged than men too in lots of ways." I laughed and asked him to name one such example before I listed hundreds of examples to support my argument. He replied "well I can't right now but if I did some research I'm sure I'd find a few".

He also then made a (ridiculous in my opinion) throwaway comment that "next you'll be teaching her "they/them" pronouns". I was a bit confused here and replied I wasn't sure what on earth "they/them pronouns" have to do with the message I was indeed trying to convey to her? That part was very odd.

That was pretty much the end of the discussion and although it was a lighthearted back and forth on the back of an innocent interaction with out child, I honestly felt quite invalidated by him, and that he just doesn't "get it". Which makes me sad considering we have a daughter to raise together.

So I suppose my AIBU is in 3 parts:

1. AIBU to feel a bit invalidated as a woman after this interaction?

2. Can anyone shed any light on what on earth the "they/them" pronoun issue has to do with anything I was saying?

3. Is DH correct that there are ways women are more advantages than men in society? If so what are these? (I couldn't bring any to mind and neither could he!)

No definitely not, but as I've said I can see how it might have been interpreted in this way.

It was more a dig at society in general. He's heard my rants about this before. One example being, his employer is a very misogynistic company, and on the (many) occasions we've had a sick baby / toddler to juggle between us and take time of work for etc, when he's approached his employer to explain it's his turn to do this (since we split it), his boss would come back comments such as: "why? Isn't your Mrs able to look after her?" etc. I mean that's one example, but he's well aware of my frustration in general with how society expects certain things of woman and not men.

However I can see how the specific example wasn't great, because it may have implied I don't feel looked after by him specifically (couldn't be further from the truth, he's great at telling me to rest if I need to and taking the reigns etc). I guess my angle was, not all men will do this as my DH does, and so our daughter needs to be wary of not being "moulded" by society to just crack on as a woman, etc.

So definitely not a dig at him. Perhaps I could have been clearer though. And I will clear it up with him later, and apologise if necessary, on the back of this thread.

Yes. That's how I felt - very invalidated and as though his position of male privilege was showing.

I'm honestly not sure how you end up married and having a kid with someone before you realise they don't think the patricahy is real. Like, this is a few dates in stuff?

However the argument came about you've realised he doesn't share your values and that's way bigger than the disagreement.

Anyway that's gutting for you and your daughter. I couldn't be with somone like this. I do honestly think for your daughter you need to reflect on his views and how you go forward. It's just gross.

I'm honestly not sure how you end up married and having a kid with someone before you realise they don't think the patricahy is real.

To be fair, I dont think I have ever met a man who really gets it - they may get the general idea, but in the application of it, no. I hope I am wrong but honestly, I just dont think men get how much women are disadvantaged in life.

@Spicybeanburger

It's a valid question and my honest answer is that, when we met we were relatively young, and he was quite a different person (as was I). I'll admit that back then I didn't have as good a grasp on feminism myself either, and what it meant. That's come more recently since having our child. Perhaps what I'm saying here is, I've realised there's a fundamental incompatibility between DH and I in terms of our values, since we became parents.

And that's a difficult realisation precisely because he's a good man in many ways (when I compare to my friends' husbands as I've said): he's very hands on as a father and husband, he'd do anything for me - I only have to hint that I feel under the weather and he'll ship off to bed with paracetamol and take the reigns with our daughter, etc. He pulls his weight with household tasks (albeit I'm generally the thinker / planner / organiser/ delegator, but he'll do whatever I ask of him in a practical sense without grumbling about it). So he evidently doesn't live sexist values himself, so him voicing today that sexism just inherently doesn't exist, feels difficult to swallow. Almost a contradiction of the person he is every day?

Not sure that makes any sense!

I can’t fully understand racism because I’ve never experienced it. I can be appalled by it, feel I don’t manifest it - but it’s not in my lived experience. Isn’t that how he feels about being a woman?

I know when I say something to my DH about inequalities in health care for example (doctors training on male bodies, lack of research into women’s conditions etc), he is genuinely shocked because he just hasn’t experienced it.

I think now your DH is father to a girl it’s likely he will be far more interested/receptive but will he ever really ‘get it’? Can you get his fears about erectile disfunction, male mental health and suicide or any other issues which aren’t your lived experience.

Surely it’s all a conversation and we all need to listen and learn?

@theresnolimits

I understand entirely what you're saying. I agree that he can't ever fully understand my lived experience as a woman, nor would I expect him to. Just as I cant understand his as a man. But my gripe was that he denied the existence of my lived experience - he essentially said "that doesn't happen". Instead of saying something like, "i can't understand first hand as I'm not a woman but that sounds awful", or similar.

So to take your racism example, that's the equivalent of me, as a white woman, saying to a black person "you're wrong that doesn't happen to you, and I'm off to google examples of the opposite to prove you wrong". Instead of, "i can't fully understand speaking from the privileged position of a white person, but I am so sorry you experience that".

can you see the difference?

"Women and children first!"

In extreme situations men are expected to sacrifice themselves so that women can live.

Like I said, it's extreme, but a female advantage.

I'm quite surprised by the replies tbh. For a man to state that society doesn't impose negative stereotypes on women is enormously ignorant imo, particularly if you've just said that this was your experience. Of course it's important to (subtly) challenge these with your daughter from a young age :)

Back in the 1950s, when my parents had just met, my father was invited to stay at my maternal grandparents' house for the weekend.
As far as I know, my granny was away, so it was just my mother and my grandpa. Mind you they had staff in those days, but am assuming the staff had the weekend off.
My mother had come down with something, but was up and ready to receive new boyfriend. My father took one look at her and said "I think you should go back to bed." Bless him, he sorted the entire weekend, entertained grandpa and looked after my mother. I suspect this was when my mother decided to marry my father.
He also got up to all of us in the night.
There are some men (even in the "dark ages") who get what being a family and a father is about.

That line just made me think of the film Titanic 😂

But yes. I see your point there.

I'd be concerned if the father of my child had those views.

Yeah probs not get it. But like you're on to a loser if they don't think the patriarchy is a thing which op's husband doesn't seem to...

The pronoun thing was an implication that you're too woke.

Hindsight is a great thing isn't it? On reflection, might you feel that a better approach might have been to comment that you're pleased your daughter has noticed that caring isn't just women's work and that it's great at her tender age she's worked out that good daddies take care of mummies when they are poorly as well as the other way around. You could even have said you hope it stands her in good stead in adult life for making wise choices based on having had good role models.

I think your intention was probably good but it sounds like you got his back up because he felt you were taking a shot at him.

Seriously? Like sure this happened on the Titanic...but it's absolutely not a lived experience of anybody I know or any modern anecdote I've come across. Sexism and misogyny is.

Buy him a copy of "Invisible Women" and tell him to come back to you when he's ready and digested the whole book.

I think ‘daddy needs to look after the baby when mummy is ill’ is not a message of equality. He’s not the understudy parent.

But yes, beyond that, I’d be mad as hell at his response too.

Just slightly to play devils advocate (though I'm not denying any existence of male privilege) but the way you approached it put you and your DH on opposing sides, rather than the same side, which instantly turned him into an adversary. Surely there's a way to teach that everyone is equal without it being about oppression.

If you had a DS, would you equally be teaching him the things that historically have been female privilege, such as stronger friendships, open intimate conversations about feelings and mental health through play at this age, or would it all feel too advanced?

Historically there has been huge male privilege but the world is shifting and new issues come in to play with that which mean that sometimes boys/men struggle more with their place in the world which is now much more open to women.

I think you came of very passive aggressive and your whole delivery would have pissed me off. And when you say society, you must know that mostly means women. Women judge women and the hardest criticism comes from women. Actually reading your whole 'step up' choice of words sounds highly irritating

I see what you mean, I did pitch us against each other a little. Point taken. Thank you for a balanced reply.

I'll take things that never happened for $500

You pissed him off with your passive aggressive comments at the start. Instead of being an adult he then decided to act like a 10 year old and be a twat.

Honestly, for me this would be enough of a red flag to consider the relationship. But I take raising a daughter very seriously. It’s hard enough to be a woman in a man’s world without it being difficult to discuss certain issues at home because of dad’s fragile ego.

One of my DHs biggest green flags is he is so aware of the responsibility for him to learn about women’s lives experiences in order to help him raise a daughter.

Why would this have not happened?! It’s literally all I’ve heard all week!