When Exactly did Trans/Non Binary Become So Commonplace?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

This isn't to start (yet another!) debate on the rights and wrongs of gender identification, transitioning etc. Just pondering on how quickly and in what year it became so common.

I'm just watching an old episode of Waterloo Road (Drama set in a comprehensive school) where one of the characters (Casey Barry for anyone who watched it) realises that she wants to be a boy rather than a tomboy and everyone reacts as if it's extremely unusual. The other pupils mock and bully her, her brother gets violent and tells her she is disgusting and a freak and the teachers talk about what a difficult road she has ahead and how much support she will need.

The episode is set in 2013. Not the 1990s. Only just over 10 years ago. But in a Year 10/11 class in a comprehensive in 2024 this wouldn't even raise an eyebrow, would it. There will be several trans and non binary pupils (maybe even several per year group) and pupils would consider it normal.

I teach in a prep school (only goes up to Year 8) so we haven't actually yet had a single pupil transition to the opposite gender. There's one 10 year old who I could potentially see it happening to over the next couple of years but it hasn't yet. So I'm relatively unknowledgable about the whole thing.

Interested to know from secondary school teachers who have been teaching for 10+ years what year you think it was that transitioning and being non binary went from rare to a relatively popular trend.

Even if it meant you were going against the very reasons for which you are doing your job and were risking being struck off?

Yes it was made very clear to us that women and men's bodies are different and that we should be asking questions about anatomy if unsure.

Absolutely. If I suspected a client was sexually motivated by me treating them as a woman and laying my hands on them I would refuse. I would not refuse treatment because someone says they’re trans.

So I would deem it important to make sure I am aware of all the different subgroups, not just the ones I was told about selectively in a seminar.

I would also deem it important to know where I actually stood with my professional board, not just what I was told selectively in a seminar.

Health care providers should absolutely be protected from abuse. Being non-consentingly involved in a fetish is abuse.

I am assuming, as part of physiotherapy training, there are strong education components on how to handle applying physical treatments to intimate areas and what to do if a client is making you feel uncomfortable.

All that needs to be considered is that there is no group for which those boundaries should not exist, no group that is exempt, regardless of any inclusivity training or threats to your regulatory body.

And as others have pointed out, those policy makers have been targeted by heavily invested lobby groups to make these policies and laws. Stonewall made a deliberate decision to switch to explicitly including trans rights in their focus, one can probably say it had become their over arching focus with the change of the sexual orientation definitions in the way they have been. Stonewall is very heavily involved in getting these policies and laws through. And governments who rightfully listened to Stonewall for same sex marriage and before, didn’t ever stop and analyse the impacts of this new focus on other groups.

In fact, before those policies and regulations were made, did any one of the governing decision makers think to ask women, and especially those raising alarms even then, to be part of the decision making process?

I know where I stand believe me, I've read and understood all of those professional standards of proficiency and practice, I have to. Most of them are nothing to do with trans, but it is important that everyone can access healthcare and receive safe and effective treatment, regardless of personal opinions. I'm yet to hear or anyone seeking physiotherapy treatment for the purposes of sexual gratification, trans or otherwise.

Strangely enough, the focus is very much on the patient's comfort levels, rather than ours 😂What you're suggesting is basic common sense, of course most of us would and should politely decline treatment or liase with a colleague if a patient is making us feel uncomfortable, but it is rarely that simple. I've worked with several trans women, none of whom have made me feel uncomfortable. The only patient I've encountered who was sexually inappropriate was a lady with dementia. Should I have issued a blanket refusal to care for her?

Absolute nonsense and fear mongering. Please provide robust evidence for how frequently health care providers are 'non-consentingly involved in fetish'.

Would you like to tell us how many are acceptable to be exposed to this in your view? 1? 2? 5?

I am combining your replies to me:

I'm yet to hear or anyone seeking physiotherapy treatment for the purposes of sexual gratification, trans or otherwise.

Of course. Probably very rare. But my point is everyone should be aware of autogynephilia as a subgroup of trans people and what that indicates, to expand your education beyond the seminar you received. That way you’re more knowledgeable. You can read Phil Illy’s stuff if you can take it.

Strangely enough, the focus is very much on the patient's comfort levels, rather than ours 😂

That’s quite sad. One shouldn’t be compromised for the other.

What you're suggesting is basic common sense, of course most of us would and should politely decline treatment or liase with a colleague if a patient is making us feel uncomfortable

And my advice to you is to not let anyone lead you to believe or gaslight you into thinking your discomfort is wrong based on DEI.

The only patient I've encountered who was sexually inappropriate was a lady with dementia. Should I have issued a blanket refusal to care for her?

Well there’s a more sympathetic explanation for the inappropriateness but absolutely if you are not feeling comfortable with it you should refuse to care for her. Why would you suffer abuse as part of your job, just because someone can’t help it? Different people have different thresholds, that’s ok.

And my intention is to point out that health care providers need to make sure they have to ability to understand the situation they may find themselves in as well as have the confidence they can withdraw from that situation without any negative ramification.

But even so, my question remains?

Every time you call an autogynephilic male “she” you are participating in the paraphilia. So it’s not just healthcare providers, it’s everyone.

And every time an autogynephilic male is placed on a women’s single sex ward, all of those who work on that ward, including the other patients are participating in the paraphilia.

And when it’s denied there is ever an autogynephilic male on a women’s single sex ward, it perpetuates the participation in the paraphilia:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4836522-uk-hospital-admits-transgender-patient-raped-woman-in-a-ward-horrific

@TheCheerfulNihilist I used to wonder if I could identify as a man in order to be paid the same as my male colleagues

The usage of pronouns out of kindness has serious repercussions. It is leveraged by extreme activists, ie. those demanding gender is prioritised over sex where sex should be the priority such as female sports categories, not trans people demanding rightful consideration where it is appropriate.

Here is McKinnon / Ivy (name changed fairly recently) who was apparently consulted as a Philosophy academic and sports person by the IOC and other international sports organisations to create transgender inclusion regulations. No female athlete groups were consulted iirc and it is only now some female athlete groups are consulted.

However the message is that people using female pronouns for male people makes it cruel to exclude those male people from any area that is designated as female only.

news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

And here

The YouTube is only accessible in the USA.

This was a major leverage point for the policy that has allowed males to compete as ‘female’ people. Note that it also requires the word ‘female’ to be used. Not women.

A couple of years ago, women were assured that no trans person denies their sex. And I suspect this is true for the majority. However these extreme activists need to have organisations treat them as the ‘sex’ they declare they are. Not necessarily just gender.

Then they directly influence policies and regulations. There has been a dramatic increase recently in those activists claiming that they are now ‘female’ again while they are actively engaged in campaigning to be fully treated as female people.

This was what Ivy/Mckinnon did with Sporting federations and organisations.

How common is AGP amongst trans people? What proportion of them have it and who is responsible for deciding they have it? Certainly not me, certainly not from a physio perspective.

Of course one shouldn't be compromised for the other, but comfort for us is more to do with what we are comfortable with from a safety/scope of practice point of view. What we are comfortable with in terms of patient behaviour is very much subjective and down to our discretion.

The impression I am getting is that you would feel uncomfortable with the mere presence of a trans woman, in case you are an unwilling participant in what you perceive to be a sexual fetish. In reality practicing health care professionals simply cannot deny treatment just on the basis of gender identity.

I am more than happy to express any discomfort on my part, but in order to justify refusing treatment to a patient, I need a better reason than simply not liking them or agreeing with their lifestyle choices. If I felt as you do, then I would simply not be able to qualify and do my job.

There are strategies for managing patients with challenging behaviour and an excellent MDT around us. Of course I am not going to tolerate abuse, and I'm sure there will be occasions where I will need to refuse treatment. In reality though, the solution is rarely as simple as resolutely refusing to care for someone who is presenting or behaving in a way that you do not like.

How common is AGP amongst trans people?

Do you remember that some male people who liked to dress up as women in public and private for the purposes of sexual gratification used to be called "transvestites". Where do you think they went?

Didn’t Grayson Perry admit dressing as a woman is sexually arousing for him? Was it him?

https://www.bigissue.com/culture/art/grayson-perry-daily-mail-facilitated-sexual-fetish/

Edit to add a link- there seems to be plenty of media about it.

I can guess what the trans presenting male did at the physio student “teaching”.

He waffled about his rights then reassured them that if they were unsure about body parts or physical issues they could just ask and he wouldn’t be offended 🙄.

How common is AGP amongst trans people? What proportion of them have it and who is responsible for deciding they have it? Certainly not me, certainly not from a physio perspective.

Amongst males, you mean. Some people, including trans people like Phil Illy and therapists like Blanchard describe it as the most common presentation among late transitioning males. Other trans activists deny its existence at all. It’s hard to quantify because of this and because it requires admission of self interest.

The impression I am getting is that you would feel uncomfortable with the mere presence of a trans woman, in case you are an unwilling participant in what you perceive to be a sexual fetish. In reality practicing health care professionals simply cannot deny treatment just on the basis of gender identity.

I have no issue being in the presence of a male who says he is trans because I am old enough, experienced enough and self confident enough to exert boundaries if I do perceive I am participating in that person’s paraphilia, including as part of my profession. I believe it’s important to empower others to do so, which is hard when people are led to believe in education seminars that boundaries equals bigotry.

I have never once said anyone should be denied treatment or service based on their identity. You can provide a service and not deny treatment based on a person’s belief of having a gender identity without participating in their paraphilia. For example an AGP male can be referred to as he and treated on a male only ward. He gets his treatment, is not denied the treatment because of any particular characteristic and no one else is subjected to participating in his paraphilia.

Anyone remember Jonathan/Jessica Yaniv and the waxing saga? Not physio, to be fair, but he was definitely looking to coerce female beauticians. I did a therapeutic massage course years ago and heard some horror stories. We were warned never to accept male clients if working alone/ out of earshot of colleagues. Now any man is a woman if he says so, it must be more difficult.

Didn’t Grayson Perry admit dressing as a woman is sexually arousing for him? Was it him?

Well there was that pic of him with a strap on at a kids benefit thing. Assuming that was real, that's a clear signal.

Debbie Hayton is very open about the arousal aspect. He's written several articles about it.

Anyone remember Jonathan/Jessica Yaniv and the waxing saga? Not physio, to be fair, but he was definitely looking to coerce female beauticians.

That was disgusting.

He was actively seeking, not just to make them uncomfortable, but to endanger their livelihoods as there's no way they could safely deliver service to him - they weren't trained to do so. That he'd put himself in danger to do so is even sicker.

Gross tactics. I'm very glad he got his comeuppance in the courts. Those poor women.

I’ve only really noticed it since my third child was in secondary school. It was almost like it was pushed on them to be a thing. So maybe five years or so that half the children my children knew have identified as something other than themselves.

In reality it’s about one child in a year group that has genuine differences the rest are just jumping on the band wagon and playing with the concept. Most of the time you can identify which children will be gay or have other differences from quite young before they are aware themselves.

Grayson Perry:

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds a little sadly.

https://amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv