When Exactly did Trans/Non Binary Become So Commonplace?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

This isn't to start (yet another!) debate on the rights and wrongs of gender identification, transitioning etc. Just pondering on how quickly and in what year it became so common.

I'm just watching an old episode of Waterloo Road (Drama set in a comprehensive school) where one of the characters (Casey Barry for anyone who watched it) realises that she wants to be a boy rather than a tomboy and everyone reacts as if it's extremely unusual. The other pupils mock and bully her, her brother gets violent and tells her she is disgusting and a freak and the teachers talk about what a difficult road she has ahead and how much support she will need.

The episode is set in 2013. Not the 1990s. Only just over 10 years ago. But in a Year 10/11 class in a comprehensive in 2024 this wouldn't even raise an eyebrow, would it. There will be several trans and non binary pupils (maybe even several per year group) and pupils would consider it normal.

I teach in a prep school (only goes up to Year 8) so we haven't actually yet had a single pupil transition to the opposite gender. There's one 10 year old who I could potentially see it happening to over the next couple of years but it hasn't yet. So I'm relatively unknowledgable about the whole thing.

Interested to know from secondary school teachers who have been teaching for 10+ years what year you think it was that transitioning and being non binary went from rare to a relatively popular trend.

I think it is also apparent in the many many photos on Twitter or Reddit. It is a rather common aspect of mature aged male people who declare they are trans. And it seems that there is division even in the trans population.

I remember a group of female transitioners in the USA who tried to raise the alarm about this as a motivation. They ended up so abused that the group had to retract all they had written. Not through being convinced that it didn’t exist, but because of the abuse they received.

And we have had many numerous male trans people tell us that absolutely not every person who declares they are trans is trans. That there most definitely is some fetishists (they deny they are ) claiming to be trans.

It is a divisive issue.

Thanks. I remember this quote.

Am I on board with the idea of so many NB people? No. Do I respect their pronouns and act as their biggest cheerleader. Of course.

Why ‘of course’ though? Why do you feel the need to be their biggest cheerleader, even if you don’t seem to be convinced by the concept of NB?
I been wondering that for a while - why is someone adopting a currently trendy identity seen as an achievement in itself? As something to be celebrated no matter what?

Not to mention what about the trans people that pass. Would you meet my very masculine passing boyfriend and call him a woman just to prove a point?

The thing is, to the people on this thread your partner is not passing.
You said yourself there were ‘two vaginas in your bed’. So we know they’re a biological woman.

Other trans activists deny its existence at all

And refer to getting erections from dresses/skirts as “Euphoria boners”. Somehow they are just so happy to be in these clothes that their penis becomes erect. But it’s trans joy, not arousal 🙄.

I agree with notbad though, an admission to the male ward will ensure they’re not as able to be thrilled about transgressing women’s boundaries.

Not at all, she wasn't the one teaching and just told us about her, from her perspective. She made it clear that all trans people are different and may have different opinions and experiences to hers. She also gives talks to nursing and medical students, not just physios. Should healthcare students not be taught about trans people and just deny their existence?

Will you have lectures from female trans people to talk about their experiences?

Will anyone educate you on the higher rates of osteoporosis in puberty blocked teenagers you may be involved in treating?

Will anyone educate you on the pelvic issues of females on testosterone you may be asked to treat?

Will anyone discuss the higher rates of thromboembolic events from wrong sex hormone therapy that might impact patients you see and their mobilisation post-operatively?

Or will it just be this one seminar from a middle aged male’s perspective?

She also gives talks to nursing and medical students, not just physios

Of course he does. Look, avoid any group of people who have set themselves up as a sort of sacred caste, whose needs must be met and who can’t be criticised.

Of course doctors need to learn about the consequences of hormonal manipulation, especially when they are promoting it. Sterility, anorgasmia, osteoporosis in puberty blocked boys who have cross sex hormones. Vaginal atrophy, uterine wall atrophy, dysfunctional uterine bleeding and clitoromegaly in girls/women on testosterone. Increased risk of stroke/heart attacks in both sexes. Variable fertility return in men who go on blockers/oestrogen after puberty and change their mind, due to changes in the make up of testes after oestrogen exposure.

Is that what he talked to you about?

Snap, notbad

I also have been reading Sinead Watson’s experiences. She still has high residual testosterone levels four years after stopping.

It is very important that if trans people’s needs are presented in a seminar, that detransitioners experience as told by a detransitioner are included too. I hope that happens.

You were a lot more detailed! All accurate though. I can’t imagine any of it was discussed. Given current healthcare workers are having to deal with all of these issues hidden behind ideology, I can’t imagine there’s any desperation to educate future healthcare workers on all that.

Yes by calling a trans woman who wishes to be called she 'he' and making her stay on a male ward you are denying that person treatment, as they will be less inclined to access or accept it. Yes it could be argued that its their choice, but that would be the case for any of us who refused treatment on the basis of what we perceived as discrimination.

I caveat that by saying that I absolutely do understand concerns about trans women who have male anatomy staying on a female bedded ward/bay, and that has its own debate. I'm not saying that I am for or against it, because I can see arguments on both sides. Each and every hospital will have their own policy regarding that, based on expert opinion and law. For those who will say that they have merely been lobbied by trans people, then of course they have. Every marginalised group throughout history has lobbied policy and law-makers for what they perceive as their rights.

I saw the link somebody posted about the transwoman who raped a woman in hospital, but that doesn't mean I can get on board with homogenisation and simplification of a more complicated issue. There have been cases of male nurses who have raped or sexually assaulted female patients. It doesn't mean that you can automatically ban them from the profession on the basis of their gender, just in case they rape someone.

Try to remember that I can only take each patient at face value and treat them with courtesy and respect, which includes addressing them by their name and pronoun of choice. If I wasn't willing to do that then I would need to find a different profession.

There is a lot of assumption on in this thread. They neither discussed nor promoted medical transition

Trans is so boring now it's surely got to be nearly over...?

One advantage of the whole thing is literally nobody cares if you're a male wearing a dress or a female presenting masculine. Nobody cares if your name is weirdly different because Elon Musk has gone way over and beyond in the naming of his children that changing your ID from 'Nicola' to 'Ben' is not even going to raise an eyebrow.

Yawn to the pronoun requests. Whatever. I'll willingly call you 'they / them' if you're a bloke because if you think I'm calling you 'she', then forget it. Being forced to put she / her in zoom groups or on company emails has tailed off into nothing. The Tavistock Clinic has been disgraced. Mermaids is over. Stonewall are being seen as a malevolent force. Detransition youtubers are telling their stories in a very real and powerful way.

It'll fold in on itself, it's already over IMO. The tiny percentage of truly desperate people who believe they're born in the wrong body or have an urgent desire to be known as the opposite sex has always existed and will probably hold stable. Gender bending and queerness and drag and cosplay likewise. Going to a clinic and getting your bits and bobs chopped off - men used to go to secret clinics in Morocco in the old days - hopefully will become a thing of the past as the NHS is already too broken for words and this is barbaric invasive painful and dangerous surgery.

The push back is fully on and the kids will get bored of it. Which is a good thing.

Medical transitioning/deconditioning was not discussed. I can't speak from a medical student perspective, but I imagine that medical students would need to be taught the medical implications of medical transition from medical experts, not a guest speaker.

Yes by calling a trans woman who wishes to be called she 'he' and making her stay on a male ward you are denying that person treatment, as they will be less inclined to access or accept it

And when they enter a female word, that ward becomes mixed sex. There is a conflict here. Do women have a right to same sex spaces or do men have the right to demand to enter them?

This is why they are lobbying you - their wants override those of women. But if they don’t get what they want they cry “discrimination”. And you are scared to deny them this, because you don’t want to be a bigot or lose your job or not be inclusive.

Have a think: do you believe wards should be single sex, and if so, why? And if single sex spaces are important, yet a man is allowed to enter, who decides that what women want is irrelevant?

I have not made the assumption at all. I have made a point that detransitioners need to be included if trans people are included. Detransitioner needs are complex and as unique as trans people’s. Do you not agree?

Yes by calling a trans woman who wishes to be called she 'he' and making her stay on a male ward you are denying that person treatment, as they will be less inclined to access or accept it. Yes it could be argued that its their choice, but that would be the case for any of us who refused treatment on the basis of what we perceived as discrimination.

This is just not true. It’s the outcome of effective lobbying. Males can get their medical treatments just the same as the rest of their sex class. Saying “if you don’t respect my pronouns you’ll be responsible for my lack of treatment” is coercive.

I'm not saying that I am for or against it, because I can see arguments on both sides

I linked to a thread where a male raped a woman on a ward. The hospital then denied there was ever a male there before finally admitting it. And you think there’s “both sides”?

Ok.

There have been cases of male nurses who have raped or sexually assaulted female patients. It doesn't mean that you can automatically ban them from the profession on the basis of their gender

No, but you can argue for single sex treatment. Which is what women are doing.

Try to remember that I can only take each patient at face value and treat them with courtesy and respect, which includes addressing them by their name and pronoun of choice. If I wasn't willing to do that then I would need to find a different profession.

Again, this isn’t true. You can be a very effective physio and a very respectful one without being forced to lie about the sex of the person you’re treating. If you’re being led to believe this isn’t the case you’re being lied to.

Just to reiterate again, I'm not advocating medical transition. Please show me where in any of my posts I said that. Yes I am aware of those issues, but anatomy, physiology, contraindications and precautions are taught to us by lecturers and peer reviewed literature, not a trans guest speaker. Do you know what percentage of the UK female population is medically transitioning? The research concerning the long term effects is currently very limited. Again, not arguing in favour of it, just a fact.

Yes by calling a trans woman who wishes to be called she 'he' and making her stay on a male ward you are denying that person treatment, as they will be less inclined to access or accept it. Yes it could be argued that its their choice, but that would be the case for any of us who refused treatment on the basis of what we perceived as discrimination.

By denying women, particular women of certain faiths and cultures, access to single sex care you are denying many women treatment as they will self-exclude. Has this been discussed on your course?

I suspect your course is prioritising the desires of men over the safety and dignity of women. Plus ca change.

The research concerning the long term effects is currently very limited.

Which is something the TRA contingent have been instrumental in ensuring. The lack of proper clinical trials and studies was highlighted in the Cass report and a key failing of the Tavistock. I find that very concerning.

Absolutely! Please tell me though, how many detransitioners do you think I'm likely to encounter in my career? We can't prepare for every single condition or phenomena in existence, it's why we have to be degree trained and learn how to interpret and critically evaluate research, because so many things impact upon a person's physiology, movement and functioning. If it is more soft skills you are referring to then the same principle applies as a trans person; respect, courtesy, name and pronouns of choice.

Every time a man says, “I wanna” about entry into women’s spaces some women are excluded.

Individual women may not care, but others will. Who gets to decide? Not the women.

I never said you were advocating for transitioning. But you said you had a seminar and that you think that’s important to learn about trans people.

But what you have been shown in that seminar in just a tiny snippet of a middle aged man’s perspective and ignored rafts of other issues, even if it’s just kept to the healthcare side of things.

So if the trans person wasn’t there to talk about healthcare and the impacts, what were they there for? Have other representatives of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act given you seminars?

Did you see my comment where I said it was a complicated issue? Do you know that there are still many wards in this country that are mixed-sex? In this case I would agree that it is discriminatory and I believe that women have the right to decline to be in a bay with a trans woman, the same as they have the right to refuse care from a male clinician. It would not be acceptable for me to refuse to work with a clinician on the basis of being male, or deny treatment to someone on the basis of their faith or gender identity.

Of course it is just their perspective, they made that very clear, and I have already said that. They weren't coming to speak to us in a expert capacity. We have lots of guest speakers delivering talks to us about what life is like for them, whether that be trans, or living with a brain injury. None of them are experts in any official capacity. We were encouraged to ask questions to our lecturers and not shy away from difficult questions. We are all aware that this is a complicated issue, and for some a contentious one.

Yes we have had other people with protected characteristics come in and speak to us, not just a trans woman.