Page 33 | To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

k2493 · 2024-01-07T11:09:10+00:00

Just posting for thoughts Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids. Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship. Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention. Every hallway is a one way system. The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold. He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again. AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 16:30

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 08:13

That is the most rational post of the thread!
It isn't just 1 thing, it is a combination of many things.
You are right in saying the focus has moved away from education. Education shoukd be about broadening the mind, being inquisitive and learning for the sake of learning. What we currently have in state education are exam factories. Parents buy into this though ie looking for the school that has the highest 7-9% rather than the school that offers the broadest curriculum and a supportive learning environment.

Show quote history

Not all parents 😉

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 16:32

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 16:30

Not all parents 😉

Show quote history

No not all parents

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:07

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 08:53

Of course we should deal with knife crime but that isn't up to the school to do, all they can do is mitigate it and the safety of the other kids and staff.
There are issues at primary but generally schools are smaller, teachers and parents have face to face relationship and there is less issues with mobile phones etc.
There was a massive change in personality in some of the kids DD went to primary with once they started secondary school ie the change in language and attitude was almost immediate. She doesnt go to school with the but sews them at the bus stop every morning and was on the Yr 6 Leavers group chat. She left the group after 4 weeks of Yr 7 because the language and bullying was horrendous. These kids 2 months earlier had been friends at primary. So there CAN be a change from primary to secondary.

Show quote history

I don't believe those DC just changed and their school had nothing to do with it. I've seen some of Dd's friends change and it is because of the schools they are at. The ones at Dd's school haven't changed atall.

Lorralorr · 10/01/2024 17:15

So my husband works in a super strict school like this. They do it for an absolutely zero tolerance approach to bad behaviour. Then kids are better behaved in classrooms too and this really benefits the kids with poor mental health/ ND who can’t deal with stuff being chucked around, shouting, teasing while they are trying to learn. He says it’s fantastic for behaviour and fantastic for staff - which leads to better retention, also good for kids. But not all kids respond well. Some love the rules some hate them!

There are some famous examples of zero tolerance schools in London which have really revolutionised prospects for kids in some of the most deprived areas - now others are starting to take note and institute similar ideas.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:19

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 09:06

Teachers don't have time though. They don't have 1 x class of 30 kids like in primary, they have lots of classes of 30 so that's impossible.
The National Curriculum doesn't allow for arts and creativity and Ofsted doesn't judge on this.
How can 1500 kids eat together in a canteen built for 500 kids?
You have completely unrealistic expectations of what a school can reasonably do.
Add to that 3 x secondary schools in the near area are closed to RAAC and kids are being taught across different random portakabins across other different schools in the county so there isn't even a physical school 🙄.

Show quote history

I don't exactly know what subjects they teach at other secondary schools but my Dd's school specialises in the Arts. She does art and design, graphics, textiles, drama, dance and music - all chances for her to be creative which she really enjoys. She's definitely spending more time doing creative subjects than in Y6 as due to the SATs they focused mainly on English and Maths. There are also creative clubs she can go to at lunchtime as they have an hour so enough time for eating and clubs. Her school also does 'fun days' like they do in Primary which seems very unusual. But it's nice because it seems to inject some fun into the terms and the students seem to really enjoy them.

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 17:20

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:03

@Iwasafool
Yes, it is.

But I'd take that risk over the shitshow that's being described here and called 'education'.

Really? I can't imagine anything worse than wondering if my child is going to be shot at school. On the news here yesterday about a ten year old shooting a ten year old and they said in the last 12 months 280 under tens shot dead in the US. Now that's horrific, having to wear a blazer when it's hot or follow a one way system hardly compares.

Of course the reality is not all UK schools are like that and not all US schools have shootings. I know which I'd prefer though, I definitely prefer my children alive.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:22

Araminta1003 · 10/01/2024 09:31

One of the things they need to do is bring in the architects as well and come up with buildings that are child friendly and happy places. Just like they used to do with council housing and light etc.

The burden cannot all be on schools. It is the NHS failing children that is even more to blame. Most of these children would also be happier if we had more youth clubs and safe spaces like that and mentors. It cannot just all be put on teachers/leaders in education.

I think this is another issue that schools are expected to do so many things that would have never been their remit in the past.

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 17:23

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:49

Where I am, children are expected to be able to write their first and last names fairly legibly and decode a few cvc words at age 5. They are expected to learn to count and associate numbers with quantities of objects. They are beginning to write their letters and numbers pointing the right way. They work on fine motor development - holding their pencils and art equipment properly, getting into and out of their outerwear and footwear, tying laces, and social-emotional skills - classroom tidyness, sharing classroom resources, paying attention during carpet time, practising their public speaking and listening skills, contributing to class discussions, dispute resolution, working in groups, and keeping track of their own personal belongings.

All children are a bit rough around the edges at age five. This is why schools in the US tend to focus on social and emotional foundations and physical readiness for learning and adapting to the communal environment in the early years, and only lean seriously into phonics and arithmetic when children are six and up.

Show quote history

So where do you think they are going wrong with the social emotional development? Students and ex students going into school and killing students/teachers and then frequently committing suicide hardly suggests what they are doing is working.

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 17:25

Lorralorr · 10/01/2024 17:15

So my husband works in a super strict school like this. They do it for an absolutely zero tolerance approach to bad behaviour. Then kids are better behaved in classrooms too and this really benefits the kids with poor mental health/ ND who can’t deal with stuff being chucked around, shouting, teasing while they are trying to learn. He says it’s fantastic for behaviour and fantastic for staff - which leads to better retention, also good for kids. But not all kids respond well. Some love the rules some hate them!

There are some famous examples of zero tolerance schools in London which have really revolutionised prospects for kids in some of the most deprived areas - now others are starting to take note and institute similar ideas.

Wouldn’t necessarily work for children who present with PDA - Pathological Demand Avoidance or demand avoidance type ASD.

There’s something having zero tolerance in the classroom, but all of the other regime type rules like no talking in corridors (as opposed to quiet voices in corridors) or not being able to use the loo as and when, take it too far.

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 17:26

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 16:32

No not all parents

Show quote history

And not all schools. I have one GS at a school local to me and it is very nurturing. My GS has dyslexia and struggled at primary but his secondary has been fantastic for him. He did well in GCSEs and is working hard at his A levels. His interests are well catered for.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:30

ST10 · 10/01/2024 09:45

Unfortunately, I think it’s more a reflection of the state of our children and their behaviour rather than the school. These sorts of draconian measures seem to be commonplace in our state secondary schools and I think it’s desperate measures to try to keep behaviour under control. It’s very sad for the children who are well behaved as they also have to be treated this way. I know it seems bonkers but I’m a primary school teacher and experience the decline in behaviour every day, even amongst 5 year olds.

Well, it's not working is it? Unfortunately, it's making behaviour worse so I think we need desperate measures to put a halt to this fashion and get back to dealing with behaviour in a sensible manner.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:33

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 09:50

@Araminta1003 However, as a Londoner we are also sick and tired of having to pay for the rest of the “kind” country. Pushing ourselves and our kids in an over competitive way because parts of the rest of the country are financially unproductive. It is a toxic model for all.

Well, just stop then. Stop being so stressy and paranoid about grades, stop caring about how rich people are and valuing them solely on that basis. Start behaving like your local area is a community, chat to people in the street, take interest in the lives and well-being of children who are not yours. Volunteer to help in a youth club, take part in making meals for elderly people. You know, like us inhabitants of “kind but unproductive” parts of the country do. Community doesn’t happen by magic, it’s the result of people getting stuck in and getting their hands dirty.

I worked for a while in the London-influenced south-east. I moved home to the westcountry as soon as I had kids because the culture of “achievement” - ie chasing wealth at the expense of everything else - is awful and destructive. There is a lot more to life than how rich you are / how much your house is worth.

Also, please don’t get me started about blaming “the regions” for the structural economic inequality they suffer…..

But this is a massive thread derail. Apologies!

We're not all like that in the South East. Plenty of community in my city if you want to be part of it.

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 17:40

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:07

I don't believe those DC just changed and their school had nothing to do with it. I've seen some of Dd's friends change and it is because of the schools they are at. The ones at Dd's school haven't changed atall.

Show quote history

I'm sure the friendship groups they got into in the first few weeks had a lot to do with it and no-one knows whether the school had anything to do with it, whether you believe that or not is irrelevant.

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 17:55

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 17:40

I'm sure the friendship groups they got into in the first few weeks had a lot to do with it and no-one knows whether the school had anything to do with it, whether you believe that or not is irrelevant.

Show quote history

Well at their age I think raging hormones have probably got something to do with it.

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 17:59

@Iwasafool obviously and I've already said that in previous comments

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 18:02

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 17:59

@Iwasafool obviously and I've already said that in previous comments

I must have missed it but I think it is a big part of it. I used to volunteer at a local primary and you could see the changes starting in year 6, I'm sure it was worse in year7.

GnomeDePlume · 10/01/2024 18:34

It will not help behaviour if flash point situations are created by having very prescriptive rules on trivia:

shirts tucked in, ties straight, the right colour socks & shoes
intolerance of normal human forgetfulness of bits of kit

If everything is punished by detentions and periods in isolation you are going to alienate students and their parents.

Remember that, for parents, detentions etc were for serious rule breaking. For the majority of parents having a child put in detention is initially very worrying. To then find out it was for something silly, the parent is not necessarily going to be supportive of the school.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 18:45

MammaEvz3 · 10/01/2024 10:04

My eldest is only 6 but thread's like this make me so concerned about when my children have to start secondary school. It sounds horrible these days! :(

There are still some lovely schools about! And hopefully maybe this fashion will have died a death by the time yours is at secondary.

Mumof3girks · 10/01/2024 18:56

My youngest was out of school for ages with mental health. Took ages to get her able to go back to school. Had her uniform check by the wellbeing teacher and it was fine. She went in and the head at the gate told her her uniform was wrong and she would have to change into lost property. Also tried to take her phone off her while she was still in the street outside. Was the last straw and I deregistered her again. Home education all the way.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 18:58

colouringindoors · 10/01/2024 10:16

I have enormous sympathy for teaching staff. But I do believe some of these ''rules" can be counter productive. In the last heatwave students at my dcs school were not permitted to remove blazers between lessons, despite many obviously struggling with the heat.

I have to say that is one of the rules that I find the cruelest and hardest to understand particularly as it affects those with sensory additional needs to a greater degree. It just seems so counter productive to make DC uncomfortable and then expect them to learn?

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 19:01

GnomeDePlume · 10/01/2024 11:07

The teachers aren't given a choice. The focus on strict adherence to detailed rules are set possibly at the Academy Trust level or by SLT. Teaching staff are compelled to enforce these rules by SLT.

This creates an antagonistic atmosphere for teaching staff and students. I doubt either want or benefit from it. It gets in the way of teaching and learning.

Unfortunately highly prescriptive uniform, deferential silence etc etc all look good in brochures or when inspectors or prospective parents are in.

It also makes it easy to hide away anyone who doesn't suit the preferred optics.

This generation of students will include the parents and teachers of the future.

You reap what you sow.

Show quote history

Indeed

Extendedoctopustentacles · 10/01/2024 19:04

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 17:30

Well, it's not working is it? Unfortunately, it's making behaviour worse so I think we need desperate measures to put a halt to this fashion and get back to dealing with behaviour in a sensible manner.

Show quote history

What's your metric to state that this makes behaviour worse?

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 19:06

Iwasafool · 10/01/2024 11:19

The teachers I know who have left say it is the parents.

Show quote history

Unfortunately, parents get fed up of how their DC are being treated and there's no goodwill in the end.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 19:14

peppermintcrisp · 10/01/2024 11:27

Probably not because of the kids but more the school managers

Yes sorry I didn't make this clear. A lot of teachers went to the last local LEA funded school.

One lovely peripatetic music teacher was openly vocal about how she hated the 'military camp' and what is was doing to the children. They as she predicted went on to cut all the music lessons and the wonderful orchestra. It is awful they only have ukelele lessons now.

That's so sad.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 19:25

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 11:41

@coffeeaddict77 because schools aren't workplaces. Most workplace aren't overcrowded with inadequate resources.
In most workplaces you don't risk being bullied or attacked in a toilet.
Schools have to keep the majority of students safe, that often means harsher rules to prevent the minority putting other students at risk of harm.
You can't compare workplaces with schools.
Workplaces don't consist of 1500 adolescents.

But we shouldn't just say oh it's fine because it's overcrowded. I mean what has overcrowding got to do with not being able to take your jumper off if you're hot? And going to the toilet is a human right and you can get ill by holding it in. Dd's school has expanded massively on a small site. They manage to let them go to the toilet. At her friend's smaller school they can't take blazers off or go to the toilet. Some good schools are able to make it work and the bad ones who can't cope should perhaps find out why.