Page 32 | To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

k2493 · 2024-01-07T11:09:10+00:00

Just posting for thoughts Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids. Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship. Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention. Every hallway is a one way system. The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold. He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again. AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

peppermintcrisp · 10/01/2024 11:27

Probably not because of the kids but more the school managers

Yes sorry I didn't make this clear. A lot of teachers went to the last local LEA funded school.

One lovely peripatetic music teacher was openly vocal about how she hated the 'military camp' and what is was doing to the children. They as she predicted went on to cut all the music lessons and the wonderful orchestra. It is awful they only have ukelele lessons now.

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 11:28

Verbena17 · 10/01/2024 11:17

Probably not because of the kids but more the school mangers.

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All the teachers I know have said they are leaving because of kids and/ parents (lack of parental support or being verbally attacked by parents). Out of a 50 min class they spend 20-30 mins doing behaviour control/forgotten homework etc etc etc.
5 good friends have left teaching in the last 2 years. 5 good teachers with 20 years' experience each. All replaced by cheaper, less experienced, newly qualified teachers.

coffeeaddict77 · 10/01/2024 11:32

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 11:28

All the teachers I know have said they are leaving because of kids and/ parents (lack of parental support or being verbally attacked by parents). Out of a 50 min class they spend 20-30 mins doing behaviour control/forgotten homework etc etc etc.
5 good friends have left teaching in the last 2 years. 5 good teachers with 20 years' experience each. All replaced by cheaper, less experienced, newly qualified teachers.

Edited

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It's no wonder the parents are unsupportive though if their child is being subjected to ridiculously harsh rules. In what workplace are you not allowed to take your jacket off if you are too hot or go to the toilet if you need to?

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 11:41

@coffeeaddict77 because schools aren't workplaces. Most workplace aren't overcrowded with inadequate resources.
In most workplaces you don't risk being bullied or attacked in a toilet.
Schools have to keep the majority of students safe, that often means harsher rules to prevent the minority putting other students at risk of harm.
You can't compare workplaces with schools.
Workplaces don't consist of 1500 adolescents.

coffeeaddict77 · 10/01/2024 11:52

twistyizzy · 10/01/2024 11:41

@coffeeaddict77 because schools aren't workplaces. Most workplace aren't overcrowded with inadequate resources.
In most workplaces you don't risk being bullied or attacked in a toilet.
Schools have to keep the majority of students safe, that often means harsher rules to prevent the minority putting other students at risk of harm.
You can't compare workplaces with schools.
Workplaces don't consist of 1500 adolescents.

I don't think overheating students by making them keep their blazers on is keeping them safe and I don't think not letting students use the toilets in breaks is a good way of keeping them safe either. Obviously if there is evidence of attacks in toilets something has to be done (although I'm sure that there are other ways of preventing this rather than closing toilets altogether) but it seems they are being shut with the assumption this will happen rather than due to the fact it has happened.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 10/01/2024 12:12

MancLass76 · 10/01/2024 11:22

I have a yr6 starting high school in September and some of the policies and practices are ridiculous. We’ve had the coat removing rule in our local high school for a while but the one way system was introduced this year and now my friend’s child has had weekly comments about being late to one particular class because the route is too long. This year they brought in someone to focus on behaviour and have started physically restraining YP at the first sign of any kind of frustration and are telling all kids not to struggle and submit. It’s shocking!

Christ. The phrase “submit” scares the shite out of me.
i am not naive enough to believe some children are violent, and violence in school cannot be tolerated under any circumstance. If that’s true and not wild teenage dramatics that’s terrible.

all I will say is prepare your child as much as you can, take any settling days you can. they will come down hard on year 7’s, so wait until the summer term at least before thinking of moving school. It does seem easier to move and catchment less of an issue if you move once they’ve started.

User79853257976 · 10/01/2024 12:26

I understand but the one way system will be for safety, as you say they school now has double the number of pupils. Behaviour in secondary is not good; those are some simple expectations to hopefully regain some control, although if the heating is broken there should be leeway. If they are sitting down and the lesson has started, their coats should be off. You wouldn’t sit in other indoor contexts with your coat on. If those things affect their mental health there might’ve other things going on.

User79853257976 · 10/01/2024 12:27

I’m a secondary teacher, we don’t come down hard on Y7s at all. (This was in reply to someone but for some reason it’s appeared at the end of the thread).

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 10/01/2024 12:28

@MancLass76 i forgot to add the most important thing.
send them with an open mind. I know it’s hard, just because you know some have struggled with the rules etc doesn’t mean yours will.
if you talked to me, you’d get a bad review of my children’s secondary. Talk to a friend she cannot praise it enough as it has been great for hers, and it has been.

our primary was the same. Terribly regarded, but my children were beyond happy there.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 10/01/2024 12:33

User79853257976 · 10/01/2024 12:27

I’m a secondary teacher, we don’t come down hard on Y7s at all. (This was in reply to someone but for some reason it’s appeared at the end of the thread).

Edited

My children’s do, any misdemeanour (no matter how tiny) is sanctioned, even just misunderstandings. i always put it down to not knowing the children so don’t know who is an issue and who just made a mistake.
End of year 7/ year 8 as they get to know the children they do slightly relax a little more.

navigatingmy20s · 10/01/2024 13:45

Was the same for me at school nearly 15 years ago. If my children’s school is like this when they are older, you can bet i’ll be by the gate after school making a fuss and starting a petition 😂

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:03

@Iwasafool
Yes, it is.

But I'd take that risk over the shitshow that's being described here and called 'education'.

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:05

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 09:37

How can 1500 kids eat together in a canteen built for 500 kids?
You have completely unrealistic expectations of what a school can reasonably do.

I hear you that the schools have problems. But, they have lost sight of their responsibility to the well-being of the children in their care.

in the above example: if there are 1500 children who need to eat in a space that fits just 500, I would organise sittings - just exactly like many primary schools do. Not throw up my hand and say, “ oh well, the 1500 children in my care will just have to take their chances as to whether they get a meal or not. It’s not my problem if they don’t eat.”

There are three lunch sittings at my local US high school. Back in the 60s-80s when the school had over 6,000 students, they let senior year students go home/ off campus for lunch and had four sittings.

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:12

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 10/01/2024 08:17

What's being described here isn't about supporting education, it's about crowd control and uncivilised cohorts who from cradle to grave have lost contact with societal norms. This has resulted in an unkind and punitive environment for all which cannot possibly support learning.

This bit about “uncivilised cohorts”: it’s the same mindset that brought you “migrants are all bad”, “this country is going to the dogs” etc. It is bedded in unspoken very right-wing assumptions about people and society as a whole - particularly people who are working class or black, and it it TOTALLY UNTRUE!

Children today are NOT less civilised than in the 1970s or even the 1870s. Overall, we live in a safer and less violent society now than in the past. Over the years it had been demonstrated that treating children with civility, compassion and love results in better behaved, happier children who are more able to learn effectively.

The “unkind and punitive environment” you so rightly identify has been created by the academy leaders who spout this mad right-wing ideology - Kathryn Birbalsingh et al. It is the schools who have created this culture, it wasn’t there in society first - certainly not in most parts of the country.

The head of “school improvement” at my son’s school was formerly a senior member of staff at the Michaela school. Maybe the Michaela approach can work in a (very)small London school where there is huge choice in which school children can attend, and where maybe there are problems with gangs and knives. Maybe.

All I can say is that it is a total disaster when applied to schools in the rural westcountry, where a single school serves the entire population including all the kids with additional needs. And where society as a whole is broadly friendly, pleasant and kind. It’s like some bizarre Nazi experiment has taken over our schools in order to brutalise an entire generation and destroy our (currently kind and friendly) local culture.

This.

I'd love to see the evidence, the studies, the various pilots that were rolled out that back up the boot camp approach.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:34

Natsku · 10/01/2024 05:24

Wasn't against fire regulations when I was in school. Are classes just more crowded now perhaps?

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It seems this overcrowding is the root of many problems.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:37

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 03:30

That's nonsense.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a parent whose DCs went to a public high school in the US, a school with a very mixed student intake - a student body of 3,500+ from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds, income levels, cultural backgrounds, parents with wildly varying levels of aspiration and ambition and different experiences of school and school systems.

There were kids heading for Harvard and kids who wanted to be mechanics or hairdressers and all points in between. Many of the students were TESL students, from homes where Spanish or Polish or (lately) Ukrainian were the first languages. There were students whose ancestors came from the rural South whose experiences of segregation had an effect on how they viewed schools.

There were no uniforms, just a dress code.

There were lockers for every student, assigned on the first day of freshman year and kept for all four years, and PE lockers where students could keep their school issued PE shorts and Tshirts and leave their day clothes and bags while doing PE.

There was a five minute passing period between classes. Students could talk and use whatever side of the hallways they wished to use, getting around a building that is a city block long (1/8 of a mile) and four floors high.

Students could get a hall pass to use the bathroom during class. Hall passes were tracked.

Students were placed in academic tracks based on placement exams and performance in classes. They did not advance year by year with kids their age.

The library was specifically remodeled as a place where students could hang out, supervised.

Minor infractions of rules did not result in detentions or exclusions. A buildup of minor infractions resulted in a referral to a dean of discipline and a discussion of issues behind the behaviour, and problem solving. The school did not expel students and did not use detention as a constant response to chronic problems.

The school employed security guards to keep order in the hallways, cafeterias, and surrounds and to double as crossing guards/ direct traffic.

SEN were diagnosed and IEPs developed by SEN staff employed by the school. The school had a Special Ed section, plus a nursery for the babies and small children of staff and students, and farmed out kids who couldn't function in the mainstream school environment because of emotional or MH needs to specific alternative educational providers, with each student fully funded by the school, including school bus transport.

The school served breakfast and lunch in the cafeterias, with FSM students able to get a hearty meal at no cost twice a day, and reduced cost food available to hundreds more. During the covid shutdown the school distributed iPads and chrome books to all students and had free meals available for pickup to all registered for free school meals plus any other students whose families needed a weekly package of dry/ tinned pantry items - noodles, pasta, jars of sauce, dried fruit, instant porridge, etc.

Yes, all of that (and there was much, much more) costs money. If you think operating what amounts to a stressful boot camp masquerading as a school will accomplish what money and evidence-based approaches to discipline do, you need to examine what it is in your assumptions about your fellow Britons that makes you think that way.

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That's obviously a huge student population but would you say the schools are overcrowded? I assume not if there is room for everyone to have a locker?

NojudgementGem · 10/01/2024 14:39

My daughter recently started at a school which sounds very similar. This week she announced that she doesn’t think most of the teachers actually even like kids but rather that they became teachers because they get a power trip from shouting and putting them in detention. It makes me really sad, I want her to like her teachers, be inspired and motivated by them and instead she comes home telling me she hates school. She loved primary school and teachers always commented on her good behaviour. She now gets threatened with detention for dropping her pen or needing the toilet. What do you do?? I can’t help but agree with her that they are being OTT

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:42

Poppytops88 · 10/01/2024 06:44

I watched 'The UKs Strictest School' on ITV yesterday. Its called Michaela Community School' in West London. Its a very deprived area and they get amazing results.
They think if you're really strict with the tiny things and zero tolerant then the big things won't happen. Some of it all very strange though and I can't see how the school could work for SEN children, I don't think they'd be accepting, I assume the parents of SEN children wouldn't consider the school.
Has anyone watched it or have any experiences of the school?

Those methods don't work for SEN children atall and due to most parents having no choice over school - they just have to go to their catchment school I would imagine there are lots of SEN kids not coping. You end up with lots of parents having to home educate.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:43

Stressedmumoftwoteens · 10/01/2024 06:46

Try sending your child to a school where there is no uniform code, no rules and no discipline because that is what my child's school has become! Regularly my child has come home from school with ripped uniform or bruises where from where they have been pushed down the stairs because there is a mass bundle of kids rushing down the corridors. No one cares what time you turn up as long as it is vaguely right. Thank goodness my child is in year 11 and leaves soon.

That sounds very difficult for your DC.

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 14:49

ST10 · 10/01/2024 09:45

Unfortunately, I think it’s more a reflection of the state of our children and their behaviour rather than the school. These sorts of draconian measures seem to be commonplace in our state secondary schools and I think it’s desperate measures to try to keep behaviour under control. It’s very sad for the children who are well behaved as they also have to be treated this way. I know it seems bonkers but I’m a primary school teacher and experience the decline in behaviour every day, even amongst 5 year olds.

Where I am, children are expected to be able to write their first and last names fairly legibly and decode a few cvc words at age 5. They are expected to learn to count and associate numbers with quantities of objects. They are beginning to write their letters and numbers pointing the right way. They work on fine motor development - holding their pencils and art equipment properly, getting into and out of their outerwear and footwear, tying laces, and social-emotional skills - classroom tidyness, sharing classroom resources, paying attention during carpet time, practising their public speaking and listening skills, contributing to class discussions, dispute resolution, working in groups, and keeping track of their own personal belongings.

All children are a bit rough around the edges at age five. This is why schools in the US tend to focus on social and emotional foundations and physical readiness for learning and adapting to the communal environment in the early years, and only lean seriously into phonics and arithmetic when children are six and up.

BettyBakesCakes · 10/01/2024 14:53

MancLass76 · 10/01/2024 11:22

I have a yr6 starting high school in September and some of the policies and practices are ridiculous. We’ve had the coat removing rule in our local high school for a while but the one way system was introduced this year and now my friend’s child has had weekly comments about being late to one particular class because the route is too long. This year they brought in someone to focus on behaviour and have started physically restraining YP at the first sign of any kind of frustration and are telling all kids not to struggle and submit. It’s shocking!

Schools can't just start restraining kids! I mean the law isn't great in that area but they can only use reasonable force where necessary and if there is a danger to the student, others or property.

Natsku · 10/01/2024 14:57

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:34

It seems this overcrowding is the root of many problems.

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Seems so. And that's a difficult (i.e. too expensive) problem to solve, so it won't get solved so instead more and more punitive rules and behaviour gets worse and worse. Depressing to think about.
I've got the opposite problem where I live, year groups are getting smaller and smaller so they're going to merge two schools from two towns. They're trying to figure out the best way to do it now, as neither of the schools is big enough (though I suspect it won't be on same level of overcrowding) but building a new school would cancel out the savings from merging the schools.

mathanxiety · 10/01/2024 15:00

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 14:37

That's obviously a huge student population but would you say the schools are overcrowded? I assume not if there is room for everyone to have a locker?

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It's a huge building, but it has had far more students in the past - during the baby boom years the same building held over 6,000 students, and class sizes for core subjects were huge. Students shared lockers back then.

The current student : teacher ratio is 15:1.

The lockers are situated along all the corridors, on all four floors. The PE lockers are in the PE section. There are miles of hallways. Back when the parent teacher meetings were in person, parents picked up printouts of maps when they entered the building, and there were helpful hall monitors giving directions.

Public schools are obliged to admit everyone living within the catchment (District) who registers, and to provide an appropriate education for all registered students.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 15:07

RosesAndHellebores · 10/01/2024 07:10

When I were a lass I got into the grammar school. Three form entry, 90 girls a year. Other local schools were 4 form entry. A couple of schools were rougher than others with poorer results, offering only cses. Compared to posts on here they were probably akin to finishing school. The rot set in, in about 1970, and it was the one size fits all comprehensive system that started it together with the Liberal left "anything goes" mentality.

What's being described here isn't about supporting education, it's about crowd control and uncivilised cohorts who from cradle to grave have lost contact with societal norms. This has resulted in an unkind and punitive environment for all which cannot possibly support learning.

It is not helped by the focus shifting from education to qualifications. An education should always be about more than paper quals, the value of which is becoming increasingly diluted.

I really agree with you about education vs. qualifications. This is another way that some DC are failed being made to take exams they have no hope of passing.

UndertheCedartree · 10/01/2024 16:23

Kikisweb · 10/01/2024 06:56

My DS starts in September. He has high anxiety levels which are going to be made so much worse by modern secondary schools. He has a lot of problems with executive dysfunction so homework and having equipment is going to be a nightmare for him, and the punishments are going to trigger school refusal. I think most secondary schools take petty things to extremes and are creating the current extremely high rates of teen anxiety, self harm and suicide. The current system fails more children than it helps.

I'm sorry to hear that. My youngest ASD daughter has just gone into Y7 so we've been doing the transition and it is a steep learning curve. My advice would be to find out if they have a learning support centre or something like this as the LSAs come and get my DD every morning and I can pass on any worries she has and they support her with them. She can also go to the centre to do colouring and drawing before form time, at lunch and after school. They help them with homework too. She also finds the library a quiet place to go to at break and lunch to read and the librarian has been really kind to her and often helps her find where her next lesson is as getting lost is one of her fears. Every afternoon when we get home I check her planner for homework so I can help her stay on top of it. Then in the evening I help her lay out her uniform and get her bag ready for the next day.