Page 27 | To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

k2493 · 2024-01-07T11:09:10+00:00

Just posting for thoughts Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids. Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship. Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention. Every hallway is a one way system. The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold. He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again. AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

Verbena17 · 09/01/2024 12:36

Allinarow48 · 09/01/2024 01:01

@Verbena17

Sounds like he did the exact right thing for himself. I really regret the closure of so many so called "special schools" remedial education was so rewarding and important. Now millions of Neurodiverse kids are playing catch up in an environment that's actively working against them.

Edited

You’re right. Yes, DS ended up going to a special school that also only barely met his needs. They understood autism much more (although not his presentation fully) and everything was laid back. If he couldn’t manage something, I’d let them know and they’d be totally cool with it.

He left with a lot less GCSEs because the special school only offered 2 but some other quals he could do like IT and stuff but the main thing was he was still alive - because in mainstream, all he wanted to do was die because they sadly made no effort to understand him😞

Verbena17 · 09/01/2024 12:44

SalmonWellington · 09/01/2024 09:23

I went to a school with no uniform and no rules at all about clothing. No rules about talking in corridors and no detentions.

The kids chose to wear sensible, weather aporopriate clothing and were pretty polite and kind to each other and to the teachers. Treat kids like humans and they behave like humans. Treat them like wild animals and they'll bite.

My school was exactly the same!
We respected almost every single teacher and they could have a bit of banter with us and we chatted about all sorts of interesting things, Friday afternoon quizzes if we worked hard during the week etc.

Now though there seems to be simply no time for anything other 100% full on slog and very little fun.

TripleDaisySummer · 09/01/2024 12:53

Because of the standardised approach the staff now take, all students are treated as guilty from the off and once she's already been shouted at for not complying or being late, this increases her anxiety and she can't explain she has exceptions permission. She becomes mute when overwhelmed, anxious and then tries to flee. She's in fight or flight mode and can't even use her communication cards or permission slips to show staff.

One of DC friends had this - concession made in uniform for her condition - head of year did try and sort it but in an anxious child already really didn't help their attendance.

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 09/01/2024 13:24

My son’s school is like this. It’s totally counter-productive and ridiculous.

We live in a rural area, there is only one secondary school for miles around and it serves the entire community. It’s always been a nice school with no major behaviour problems, no gangs, no knives. Intake predominantly working class, 80% of kids probably aspire to be mechanics/plumbers/farmers and 20% or so probably interested in university and a “professional” career.

Now it’s run by an academy trust and the head of “school improvement” is a Michaela School type. She marches around the school shouting at people, marches into lessons and orders kids to “reflection” (over the head of the class teacher) if she deems them to be sitting incorrectly or failing to have their eyes tracking the teacher in the correct manner. Reflection is an isolation room overseen by a member of staff who is ex-police. The children have to chant slogans in tutor time at the start of the day. Lunch is a 20min break with nowhere to sit down to eat. No fun is permitted at any time. Academic attainment in maths and English is the only thing that matters, and God help anyone not naturally academic, they are no longer wanted in the school.

What exactly is the point of it all? Even as the parent of a well behaved and naturally academic child, this kind of punitive culture is the opposite of what I want for my child. For the kids who are never going to get As or ever wear a suit to work, the whole thing is so alien it’s insanity. No wonder truancy and absence rates are through the roof.

Natsku · 09/01/2024 13:36

That sounds horrific @dontbenastyhaveapasty only 20 minute break for lunch? How much other breaks do they get? (lack of breaks I think is another contributing factor to poor behaviour - children and teenagers need regular breaks to let off steam, so they can manage to behave better in class. They get 15 minutes every 45 minutes here, or half an hour after a 1.5h lesson. I bet that's one of the factors that helps with behaviour here so less rules are needed)

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:43

axolotlfloof · 09/01/2024 08:13

The best things about my kids school:
No blazers or uncomfortable uniform
Lockers
They appear to be treated like people not cogs in a machine.
The taking coats off as you enter the building sounds relatively reasonable.

That was one of the pluses for my DD's school. No blazers or ties.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:45

Marchitectmummy · 09/01/2024 08:47

I cant see the massive hardship in the schools requests. No one is going to freeze taking their coat off on their way into school, and one way system us sensible.

As for teenage boys being tearful and fearful, of what being disciplined? Why haven't they experienced discipline by 11 years old, and why are they so unfamiliar with following simple rules?

Read the thread. It's about extreme rules and punishments not simple rules and discipline.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:48

RobinStrike · 09/01/2024 09:04

I agree with all of this but surely the answer is to reintroduce lockers so pupils can store their coats and boots if necessary, and maybe even PE kit? Isn’t it unreasonable to expect pupils to put wet /bulky coats in an already full bag to carry round all day? How horrible to put a damp, soggy coat on at the end of the day to wear home because it hasn’t had a chance to dry out. Plus I bet they also get in trouble for their books being damp as a result of their coat soaking them. Adults in work aren’t expected to carry coats around the building with them while they work.
I know cuts in building programmes meant lockers were eliminated. Time to bring them back.

Show quote history

It definitely seems that one is the key to so many of these problems. Schools keep being made to take in more and more students and then have to do away with lockers and cloakrooms and can't handle the amount of DC.

wildlifeWalker · 09/01/2024 13:50

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 09/01/2024 13:24

My son’s school is like this. It’s totally counter-productive and ridiculous.

We live in a rural area, there is only one secondary school for miles around and it serves the entire community. It’s always been a nice school with no major behaviour problems, no gangs, no knives. Intake predominantly working class, 80% of kids probably aspire to be mechanics/plumbers/farmers and 20% or so probably interested in university and a “professional” career.

Now it’s run by an academy trust and the head of “school improvement” is a Michaela School type. She marches around the school shouting at people, marches into lessons and orders kids to “reflection” (over the head of the class teacher) if she deems them to be sitting incorrectly or failing to have their eyes tracking the teacher in the correct manner. Reflection is an isolation room overseen by a member of staff who is ex-police. The children have to chant slogans in tutor time at the start of the day. Lunch is a 20min break with nowhere to sit down to eat. No fun is permitted at any time. Academic attainment in maths and English is the only thing that matters, and God help anyone not naturally academic, they are no longer wanted in the school.

What exactly is the point of it all? Even as the parent of a well behaved and naturally academic child, this kind of punitive culture is the opposite of what I want for my child. For the kids who are never going to get As or ever wear a suit to work, the whole thing is so alien it’s insanity. No wonder truancy and absence rates are through the roof.

It seems to have got worse!
Twenty minutes for break! I know my kids had issues with short lunches and the queues being too long so they ended up with nothing.
Hardly conducive to a day's learning and even worse for those on free meals with that being their only food of the day.
Why did these Trusts come about? Is there any national data on how well they are doing in Ofsted, truancy, absences etc?

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:50

SalmonWellington · 09/01/2024 09:23

I went to a school with no uniform and no rules at all about clothing. No rules about talking in corridors and no detentions.

The kids chose to wear sensible, weather aporopriate clothing and were pretty polite and kind to each other and to the teachers. Treat kids like humans and they behave like humans. Treat them like wild animals and they'll bite.

I agree with this. DC at Primary where most are treated kindly, behaviour in on the whole good. Then they get moved to these secondaries and it all goes wrong.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:51

notthe9oclocknews · 09/01/2024 09:38

Sadly, this is the result of over a decade of significant funding cuts to the education system and continued incompetence at the DofE. The schools are all falling apart, the RAAC issue hasn't gone away, local government funding that used to top up education services has all gone, many councils are on the verge of bankruptcy. On top of all this, Heads and teachers are under extreme pressure due to increased outcome expectations with limited resources. The UK education system is pretty dire atm. I think all that can be done now is hope for a Labour government and hope that they sort education out along with all the other public services.

Let's hope so.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:53

Needmorelego · 09/01/2024 11:08

@UndertheCedartree big schools could divide up into schools within schools so they are smaller.
If a school is divided up into -say - school A, B and C it would be that A has all their lessons in Block/Section A, B in B, C in C etc. A pupils would have no lessons with B and C, B no lessons with A and C....you get the idea.
Sports facilities could be shared and some specialist subjects at GCSE level the groups could combine (for the 27 pupils that decide they want to do Latin 😂) but other than that it would be like 3 separate schools. Less overwhelming.

Yes, that could really help some of these large schools.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 13:55

blackheartsgirl · 09/01/2024 11:08

Sounds exactly like my dc school. The coat issue is ridiculous and they’re also not allowed to take their blazers off when it’s 35 degree heat either. Dd passed out twice and hit her head because she was so hot, she refused to go back into school after that.

One of Dd's friends wasn't allowed to take off her blazer when it was boiling in the first week of her secondary. She has ASD and sensory issues so being boiling hot was very distressing for her. She didn't want to go back in after that.

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 09/01/2024 13:56

@Natsku they get a 30min morning break, at 11:20, which many use for an early lunch break - the food servery is open both breaks. The second break is at 13:40.

I agree, breaks are so important - as is having somewhere to sit down to eat! There are about 50 places to sit at a table, for around 1300 pupils. I’ve raised it with the school, who claim the pupils “prefer” to stand around outside and eat standing up! Or, in my son’s case, just eat a biscuit or snack and not his actual lunch - and I know of lots of children who basically don’t eat lunch at all.

The illogical nature of the whole thing makes me even more frustrated - it is surely impossible to be unaware that hungry children do not learn well. The academy trust is obsessed with attainment, yet apparently incapable of any positive practical action that would boost it, such as ensuring every child can actually sit and eat a hot meal between 8:40 and 3:20…

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:00

MondieBee · 09/01/2024 11:48

I keep hearing behaviour is worse therefore secondary schools are having to come down harder, but I can't help wondering if some of the correlation is the other way.

If you introduce lots of arbitrary, nonsense rules and enforce them with lots of shouting and detentions, you're creating many more opportunities for rule breaking and therefore shouting and detentions, making it feel like behaviour is terrible. Therefore as a school you come down harder, making the original issue worse, and using the increased number of detentions as evidence that behaviour is worsening. This must create a ridiculous race to the bottom. It's clearly not working.

The navy suit, tan shoes description absolutely nails it.

I work with looked after children and don't get me started on the absolute lack of understanding of trauma and the expectations they place on teens who have moved placement 8 times in 2 years etc is ridiculous.

I blame schemes like teach first, I think many now senior staff did useless degrees, didn't know what to do with their lives, had inferiority complexes, ended up doing their one year teacher training and went into a job they didn't really enjoy. Very few are passionate educators, interested in child development and aware of adolescent brain development.

Combine a workforce that's got a high percentage of staff who don't really see teaching as a vocation with the endless funding cuts and the introduction of academies with the across the board rules (regardless of school demographic) and it's no surprise secondary education particularly is an utter shit show.

That's the thing. This trend has been around for a while and all I hear is behaviour is getting worse. So it's not working is it?

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:04

Poppytops88 · 09/01/2024 12:03

Went to collect something to reception today at 9.30 to collect something at my dc secondary. Two girls were just rocking up 45mins late, they just didn't care at all, no sorry just really rude, no alpologies, reason for lateness. The staff were kind but told them they were now to go straight to isolation. I could really see what they're up against. As I left some kids were just casually walking up the hill to school!

See, I think this shows how this extreme punishment of isolation for being late simply doesn't work.

At my Dd's school they get a break time detention for lateness and hardly any are late and all very polite and apologetic for being late.

If you aren't even going to get into a lesson but just go straight to isolation if late then you're not going to bother rushing to get in as soon as possible.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:05

twistyizzy · 09/01/2024 12:05

@Poppytops88 exactly and then if Ofsted were in and saw that the school would get downgraded for Behaviour and Attitide.
A lot posters on here just haven't got a clue, including about how their own perfect DC behave in school!

A lot of us are teachers and recognise the problems!

TripleDaisySummer · 09/01/2024 14:08

I agree, breaks are so important - as is having somewhere to sit down to eat! There are about 50 places to sit at a table, for around 1300 pupils. I’ve raised it with the school, who claim the pupils “prefer” to stand around outside and eat standing up! Or, in my son’s case, just eat a biscuit or snack and not his actual lunch - and I know of lots of children who basically don’t eat lunch at all.

We have same issue with no seats for eating - I've had to modify what I send DD2 in with - small easy to eat morsels.

For a time she managed by eating in clubs but due to cleaning they've stopped this - and no they have to eat before or after - but they know canteen isn't big enough yet provide no where else.

It's when it wet it upsets her most - there little shelter and they all fight for it - worse case it's standing up in rain eating.

They get 15 minutes mid morning and 1.30 30 minutes lunch break that clubs and revision classes are held in - many teachers used to turn blind eye to eating but SLT came down hard on that and do random inspections. I did used to wonder why last year DS and her were walking in - we're not far from school - and rushing to toilets and then basically eating their lunch. It's been even worse this last term ever more restrictions.

BettyBakesCakes · 09/01/2024 14:08

One of Dd's friends wasn't allowed to take off her blazer when it was boiling in the first week of her secondary. She has ASD and sensory issues so being boiling hot was very distressing for her. She didn't want to go back in after that.

This is disability discrimination. And yet again shows why such policies are unacceptable.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:10

AllMyGoodUserNamesAreAlreadyTaken · 09/01/2024 12:33

@UndertheCedartree yes these things should technically come under reasonable adjustments ...but the problem is there are 2000 students in DD's schools and I've no idea how many staff (but it's a lot)
Because of the standardised approach the staff now take, all students are treated as guilty from the off and once she's already been shouted at for not complying or being late, this increases her anxiety and she can't explain she has exceptions permission. She becomes mute when overwhelmed, anxious and then tries to flee. She's in fight or flight mode and can't even use her communication cards or permission slips to show staff.
I do realise with so many staff and so many pupils, it must be impossible for them to remember who has exemptions and for what & they do have my sympathy. I also realise that somehow DD (& young people like her) need to find effective ways of communication as this is preparation for life in the wider world but because her anxiety is so high as it is, this approach just makes her even more fearful and stressed. It's a catch 22.
She desperately wants to be home ed which ultimately we (& professionals) feel would further increase her withdrawing into herself and her sense of isolation too. There are no small secondary schools near us which she might cope better in. Her medical/physical health is poor and travelling each day to a school that's well over an hour away from home isn't an option as she is exhausted as is and frequently needs pain relief, blood sugars monitoring etc. She has 1:1 TA's for lessons but as she is cognitively typical, she doesn't want them with her at break times or in the corridors as she feels this marks her out even further as different to her peers.
We have under the guidance of health professionals now medicated her for anxiety but 6 weeks in, things are no better. She was up till midnight panicking last night and then up again at 2am. The taxi arrived 20 mins late this morning which sent her into meltdown and on the back foot from the off. So far I've had 4 phone calls from school and it's not even lunchtime. It's like watching my DD wither and shrivel into herself. I fully except this isn't schools fault by itself and my daughter has high levels of need but the fact that pupils are generally treated as a mass commodity just doesn't help.

Oh bless her. My DD would not being able to cope in that environment either. It is so frustrating now that often there is no choice of secondary school and you just have to put up with what you get even if it doesn't suit your DC atall.

BettyBakesCakes · 09/01/2024 14:15

The blame lies at the door of government.

Absolutely agree with this.

As well as the insane rules, isolations for no real reason, lack of RAs, and all the other stuff mentioned in here, the whole education system needs an overhaul. Less focus on academic attainment by Ofsted and more on a well rounded curriculum with happy, attaining and attending students, more funding, more resources, more access to quick and consistent support for those who need it, less pressure on school staff. The whole system is a mess.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:16

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 09/01/2024 13:24

My son’s school is like this. It’s totally counter-productive and ridiculous.

We live in a rural area, there is only one secondary school for miles around and it serves the entire community. It’s always been a nice school with no major behaviour problems, no gangs, no knives. Intake predominantly working class, 80% of kids probably aspire to be mechanics/plumbers/farmers and 20% or so probably interested in university and a “professional” career.

Now it’s run by an academy trust and the head of “school improvement” is a Michaela School type. She marches around the school shouting at people, marches into lessons and orders kids to “reflection” (over the head of the class teacher) if she deems them to be sitting incorrectly or failing to have their eyes tracking the teacher in the correct manner. Reflection is an isolation room overseen by a member of staff who is ex-police. The children have to chant slogans in tutor time at the start of the day. Lunch is a 20min break with nowhere to sit down to eat. No fun is permitted at any time. Academic attainment in maths and English is the only thing that matters, and God help anyone not naturally academic, they are no longer wanted in the school.

What exactly is the point of it all? Even as the parent of a well behaved and naturally academic child, this kind of punitive culture is the opposite of what I want for my child. For the kids who are never going to get As or ever wear a suit to work, the whole thing is so alien it’s insanity. No wonder truancy and absence rates are through the roof.

I just don't see how 20 minutes for lunch is a good thing? Again, it's just crowd control. I like DD to be able to have a full hour for lunch. To eat, socialise, go to clubs and have a proper break ready for the afternoon. It's just sad that schools/trusts/government don't see the value in that.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:19

Natsku · 09/01/2024 13:36

That sounds horrific @dontbenastyhaveapasty only 20 minute break for lunch? How much other breaks do they get? (lack of breaks I think is another contributing factor to poor behaviour - children and teenagers need regular breaks to let off steam, so they can manage to behave better in class. They get 15 minutes every 45 minutes here, or half an hour after a 1.5h lesson. I bet that's one of the factors that helps with behaviour here so less rules are needed)

Yes, that's a good point. My DD gets 20 minutes at break after her first 1hr 40 min lesson, then 1 hour for lunch after her second lesson. Then a final lesson before home time.

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:23

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 09/01/2024 13:56

@Natsku they get a 30min morning break, at 11:20, which many use for an early lunch break - the food servery is open both breaks. The second break is at 13:40.

I agree, breaks are so important - as is having somewhere to sit down to eat! There are about 50 places to sit at a table, for around 1300 pupils. I’ve raised it with the school, who claim the pupils “prefer” to stand around outside and eat standing up! Or, in my son’s case, just eat a biscuit or snack and not his actual lunch - and I know of lots of children who basically don’t eat lunch at all.

The illogical nature of the whole thing makes me even more frustrated - it is surely impossible to be unaware that hungry children do not learn well. The academy trust is obsessed with attainment, yet apparently incapable of any positive practical action that would boost it, such as ensuring every child can actually sit and eat a hot meal between 8:40 and 3:20…

And have every student been given a questionnaire asking if they prefer eating standing up or sitting down? How exactly are you meant to eat a proper meal standing up?

UndertheCedartree · 09/01/2024 14:26

TripleDaisySummer · 09/01/2024 14:08

I agree, breaks are so important - as is having somewhere to sit down to eat! There are about 50 places to sit at a table, for around 1300 pupils. I’ve raised it with the school, who claim the pupils “prefer” to stand around outside and eat standing up! Or, in my son’s case, just eat a biscuit or snack and not his actual lunch - and I know of lots of children who basically don’t eat lunch at all.

We have same issue with no seats for eating - I've had to modify what I send DD2 in with - small easy to eat morsels.

For a time she managed by eating in clubs but due to cleaning they've stopped this - and no they have to eat before or after - but they know canteen isn't big enough yet provide no where else.

It's when it wet it upsets her most - there little shelter and they all fight for it - worse case it's standing up in rain eating.

They get 15 minutes mid morning and 1.30 30 minutes lunch break that clubs and revision classes are held in - many teachers used to turn blind eye to eating but SLT came down hard on that and do random inspections. I did used to wonder why last year DS and her were walking in - we're not far from school - and rushing to toilets and then basically eating their lunch. It's been even worse this last term ever more restrictions.

So they can't even go in their form rooms if it's raining?