To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

[k2493]

Just posting for thoughts

Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids.

Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship.

Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention.

Every hallway is a one way system.

The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold.

He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again.

AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

This is a very valid point. However, I just wonder how you can have 2 schools right near each other and one has all the extreme rules/punishment and lots of bad behaviour, the other has normal rules/punishment and good behaviour.

Because not all schools are the same and are working with the same demographic of students. Not all schools have the same layout and may have individual toilets students can access. Some schools may be able to afford designated toilet staff to supervise behaviour. Some schools may have particular behavioural issues such as vaping or drug taking and have to close toilets other schools may not. Some schools have students who ask to go to the toilet three times a lesson every lesson others do not. Some schools have gangs meet up in the toilets others do not.

Every single school is different. Rather than thinking of why a school is having to restrict access to water or close toilets for sensible reasons people are choosing to think the school is a dictatorship controlled by megalomaniacs.

@Verbena17 no-one is arguing for it. What some problems are trying to do is to explain why certain rules eg around coats are needed.
I would highly recommend you go into a secondary school and spend a week with a teacher, experiencing the issues they face. Then you may understand.
If a school has 1500 pupils then how do you think you manage this number? They are adolescents with hormones who are pushing boundaries in schools which are too small and too under-resourced. That's why certain rules are needed.
The government are pushing for all schools to become MATs so the issue is only going to get worse.
I agree that our education system isn't fit for purpose but take it up with Ofsted and the politicians.
Part of Ofsted judgement is around Pupil Attitudes and Behaviours hence the move to more draconian measures.
Maybe read the EIF in full and it will be clearer.

The best things about my kids school:
No blazers or uncomfortable uniform
Lockers
They appear to be treated like people not cogs in a machine.
The taking coats off as you enter the building sounds relatively reasonable.

I cant see the massive hardship in the schools requests. No one is going to freeze taking their coat off on their way into school, and one way system us sensible.

As for teenage boys being tearful and fearful, of what being disciplined? Why haven't they experienced discipline by 11 years old, and why are they so unfamiliar with following simple rules?

I agree with all of this but surely the answer is to reintroduce lockers so pupils can store their coats and boots if necessary, and maybe even PE kit? Isn’t it unreasonable to expect pupils to put wet /bulky coats in an already full bag to carry round all day? How horrible to put a damp, soggy coat on at the end of the day to wear home because it hasn’t had a chance to dry out. Plus I bet they also get in trouble for their books being damp as a result of their coat soaking them. Adults in work aren’t expected to carry coats around the building with them while they work.
I know cuts in building programmes meant lockers were eliminated. Time to bring them back.

I went to a school with no uniform and no rules at all about clothing. No rules about talking in corridors and no detentions.

The kids chose to wear sensible, weather aporopriate clothing and were pretty polite and kind to each other and to the teachers. Treat kids like humans and they behave like humans. Treat them like wild animals and they'll bite.

Sadly, this is the result of over a decade of significant funding cuts to the education system and continued incompetence at the DofE. The schools are all falling apart, the RAAC issue hasn't gone away, local government funding that used to top up education services has all gone, many councils are on the verge of bankruptcy. On top of all this, Heads and teachers are under extreme pressure due to increased outcome expectations with limited resources. The UK education system is pretty dire atm. I think all that can be done now is hope for a Labour government and hope that they sort education out along with all the other public services.

I hope it gets sorted, your poor DD.

I would have thought your DD being able to wear her coat or something like a thick fleece if it would be more comfortable would be a reasonable adjustment.

At my Dd's school if they're late they get a break time detention if late but they let them off if a parent rings to say the car broke down for example. But in our city there is lots of reliable public transport and they can arrive from 8am but don't actually have to be in til 8.45. This works well as it's enough to make them focus on trying to be on time without being over the top. I've been in reception when latecomers arrive and there aren't many atall.

But in your Dd's case it is beyond her control if she is late and therefore they should be lenient as she shouldn't have to go through the anxiety everyday. Again, it should be a reasonable adjustment for her.

That is exactly what I'm observing. DC at these school's behaviour is getting worse not better!

I agree, secondary schools should be smaller. New schools need to be built not just stuffing more and more DC into the existing ones.

@UndertheCedartree big schools could divide up into schools within schools so they are smaller.
If a school is divided up into -say - school A, B and C it would be that A has all their lessons in Block/Section A, B in B, C in C etc. A pupils would have no lessons with B and C, B no lessons with A and C....you get the idea.
Sports facilities could be shared and some specialist subjects at GCSE level the groups could combine (for the 27 pupils that decide they want to do Latin 😂) but other than that it would be like 3 separate schools. Less overwhelming.

Sounds exactly like my dc school. The coat issue is ridiculous and they’re also not allowed to take their blazers off when it’s 35 degree heat either. Dd passed out twice and hit her head because she was so hot, she refused to go back into school after that.

I have to say my DD's P.E teachers are really nice too. So they're not all bad! My DD doesn't always enjoy P.E depending on what they re doing but she always says the P.E teachers are nice/kind etc.

Not all teachers are saying that. My experience as a teacher is these types of schools are making behaviour worse and it is also clear as a parent.

I was talking to a teacher friend the other day who hates the way she is expected by SLT to hold the DC to such extreme standards and with extreme punishments. Plenty of teachers are speaking out against it.

But it's clear that there are schools in the same place with the same demographic of students. My DD's school doesn't have individual toilets or staff on 'toilet duty'. Yes, every school is different but we need to look at what is happening to allow this bad behaviour to flourish. Teachers don't help by turning this into an issue of teachers Vs parents!

True at my DC school they are supposed to take them off before entering the building - though I believe they are allowed them on playgrounds at break.

It's often wet here so not so sure it makes sense.

Really bat shit thing was few years ago they decide all coats - one not allowed to be worn in building had to be black. They got very prescriptive - at same time many black coats went missing - they'd also made it so lost property was completely inaccessible to the kids while still claiming the could - DD2 coat went missing so she went in one day in a navy blue ie hard to tell from black - was told to take it off outside building and threatened with dentation.

DN school they could take off in classroom but despite a rural population dependent of dedicated school buses services lateness was automatic detention no exceptions - the concession they made in end was lunch time dentations not after school.

Previous head at DC had got the school were it could get even the difficult cases turned round most of the time and out the door with either good qualifications or some - that's gone and they get more and more rules but the disruptive behavior just worsens.

I don't blame the teachers - many good ones have left in last few years - I blame the SLT. Though as DH said at time having got rid of a HT who made effective progress over years with Inspections it was hardly surprising there wasn't a huge pool wanting to take the school on took two recruitments to get a very lackluster candidate.

I keep hearing behaviour is worse therefore secondary schools are having to come down harder, but I can't help wondering if some of the correlation is the other way.

If you introduce lots of arbitrary, nonsense rules and enforce them with lots of shouting and detentions, you're creating many more opportunities for rule breaking and therefore shouting and detentions, making it feel like behaviour is terrible. Therefore as a school you come down harder, making the original issue worse, and using the increased number of detentions as evidence that behaviour is worsening. This must create a ridiculous race to the bottom. It's clearly not working.

The navy suit, tan shoes description absolutely nails it.

I work with looked after children and don't get me started on the absolute lack of understanding of trauma and the expectations they place on teens who have moved placement 8 times in 2 years etc is ridiculous.

I blame schemes like teach first, I think many now senior staff did useless degrees, didn't know what to do with their lives, had inferiority complexes, ended up doing their one year teacher training and went into a job they didn't really enjoy. Very few are passionate educators, interested in child development and aware of adolescent brain development.

Combine a workforce that's got a high percentage of staff who don't really see teaching as a vocation with the endless funding cuts and the introduction of academies with the across the board rules (regardless of school demographic) and it's no surprise secondary education particularly is an utter shit show.

Actually most teachers I know enter the profession as passionate educators but the daily grind of poor pupil behaviour/lack of resources/unsuitable teaching enviroments/pressure of Ofsted which creates a culture of blame etc quickly grinds them down. Hence the current crisis in recruitment and retention.
The blame lies at the door of government.

Went to collect something to reception today at 9.30 to collect something at my dc secondary. Two girls were just rocking up 45mins late, they just didn't care at all, no sorry just really rude, no alpologies, reason for lateness. The staff were kind but told them they were now to go straight to isolation. I could really see what they're up against. As I left some kids were just casually walking up the hill to school!

@Poppytops88 exactly and then if Ofsted were in and saw that the school would get downgraded for Behaviour and Attitide.
A lot posters on here just haven't got a clue, including about how their own perfect DC behave in school!

Arbitrary, nonsense rules add I think to DD2 sudden anxiety - but it's on top of toilet food worried low level bullying and high noise levels I suspect it's cumulative environmental stresses.

School's approach is without consulting us is to give her a pass - it gets her out of a stressful situation where TBH she probably isn't taking anything in - unfortunately that it no monitoring of how often she using - she supposed to keep track and tell them any patterns she notices - she already knew it was often nosiest. Problem is some lesson she is now behind in and thus is more anxious about.

Obvious we've now tried to step in at home and catch her up and offer her support and aids to stay in lessons - but if she didn't feel able to talk to us I'd have literally no idea. (Two reports per year - first one we had to chase for - and one parent evening near end of year - she in Y10 and in wales so this is actually after she sat some of her GCSE exams)

I am taken a back how many of like her quite generally rule abiding friends now truant but the school does now very much have a stance that is antagonistic to all parents and combined with exceptional poor communication it's very difficult to work with them to support her.

@UndertheCedartree yes these things should technically come under reasonable adjustments ...but the problem is there are 2000 students in DD's schools and I've no idea how many staff (but it's a lot)
Because of the standardised approach the staff now take, all students are treated as guilty from the off and once she's already been shouted at for not complying or being late, this increases her anxiety and she can't explain she has exceptions permission. She becomes mute when overwhelmed, anxious and then tries to flee. She's in fight or flight mode and can't even use her communication cards or permission slips to show staff.
I do realise with so many staff and so many pupils, it must be impossible for them to remember who has exemptions and for what & they do have my sympathy. I also realise that somehow DD (& young people like her) need to find effective ways of communication as this is preparation for life in the wider world but because her anxiety is so high as it is, this approach just makes her even more fearful and stressed. It's a catch 22.
She desperately wants to be home ed which ultimately we (& professionals) feel would further increase her withdrawing into herself and her sense of isolation too. There are no small secondary schools near us which she might cope better in. Her medical/physical health is poor and travelling each day to a school that's well over an hour away from home isn't an option as she is exhausted as is and frequently needs pain relief, blood sugars monitoring etc. She has 1:1 TA's for lessons but as she is cognitively typical, she doesn't want them with her at break times or in the corridors as she feels this marks her out even further as different to her peers.
We have under the guidance of health professionals now medicated her for anxiety but 6 weeks in, things are no better. She was up till midnight panicking last night and then up again at 2am. The taxi arrived 20 mins late this morning which sent her into meltdown and on the back foot from the off. So far I've had 4 phone calls from school and it's not even lunchtime. It's like watching my DD wither and shrivel into herself. I fully except this isn't schools fault by itself and my daughter has high levels of need but the fact that pupils are generally treated as a mass commodity just doesn't help.