To wonder what has happened to my Son's school

[k2493]

Just posting for thoughts

Both my kids have gone through the same secondary school. When my daughter started, the school was lovely and new with around 750 kids.

Fast forward to 2024 and there is now 1500 kids and it's become like a dictatorship.

Due to the number of kids, the school has put lines either side of the hallway that they have to walk within otherwise they get detention.

Every hallway is a one way system.

The minute they arrive in school, they have to remove their coats or it's detention even with no heating in the middle of winter. The other day my son arrived back to school to find that there were long queues outside while they did two uniform checks at the door. By the time he got in, he was frozen. Immediately he got shouted at for still having his coat on even though he had just stepped in from the cold.

He then went around the corner and got shouted at again even though he tried to explain it's really difficult to be expected to stay warm, keep moving and remove your coat all at the same time. Nope. Threaten with detention again.

AIBU to wonder what has happened to our education system? I'm lucky in that my son is quite strong minded and just brushes it off but what about the kids who's mental health this is impacting? Surely we want our kids to remember school as being enjoyable for their education and friendships rather than for being shouted at every two minutes for not walking between lines or not taking their coats off the minute they arrive in school?

This school honestly doesn't care about reasonable adjustments. It's our catchment school and when looking at schools for my DD I spoke to them and they were just not interested. And it's not even a big school!

No.

If it's really horrific weather they may open hall or sport hall or both - but it's really rare now and otherwise it's outside unless they can find a group occurring in lunchtime even library isn't allowed till Y11. The groups/activities can suddenly stop as well - they all stopped for a few week last term.

However at minute they are not allowed to eat inside building other than too small canteen at all and reason given to parents is it led to increased cleaning costs when this happened so blanket ban.

It may relax as year goes on - but has upset DD2 and many of her friends this last term.

That is really shit for the children. When I was in my first secondary school we could eat in our tutor rooms, the rooms had to be cleaned anyway (but we were responsible for emptying the bin) so not a reason to stop us eating there. In my second school there was plenty of room in the canteen and some teachers let you eat in their classrooms (though the deputy head cracked down on that at one point, locking the corridor doors, we actually got locked in which in hindsight was quite dangerous). Me and my friends often ate in the music practice rooms.

Sounds like the right way. I hope they enforce bringing correct equipment in as well, and do not allow teachers to dish out pens/pencils to those who forget. Dishing out pencils to 'forgetful' students is a discipline problem, because the students doing this intend to cause a problem and it holds the whole class up. Every school I have ever worked in had a 'walk on the left' rule, good schools will also have a 'silence in the corridor' rule as well and enforce it. The OP's school does not sound especially oppressive but there must have been a discipline problem originally to have teachers on patrol telling students to take off their coats etc.

What are 'minor things' though? Not having the correct equipment is not minor, it will disrupt the entire class whilst being sorted out and opens the gates to other students 'borrowing' equipment = bad discipline. Talking in the corridor, if against the rules, is not minor, either. And if the 'minor' things are let go then it is a sadly short step to the sort of disruption that can be caused by 'needing to go to the loo in classtime' - a nightmare - and disruption in both corridor and classroom. Not minor.

The environment you both describe works fine for nice middle class children from supportive homes who have access to lots of opportunities. It is useless in a school where many children live in unsupportive homes, are not fed breakfast, have families with no interest in education or reading etc. and set no boundaries on their children. In that situation, uniform, rules, detentions etc are the bulwark against chaos, as are exclusions, and these things allow the children who do want to work and progress, because the disruptive elements are removed.

A lot of the issues I see in school due to the sheer sizes of them. When I first started teaching in 2000 my largest class size (too set) was 25 and bottom set would be 15. My largest class size is now 34 and my bottom set is 30. We try to meet individual needs but with so many pupils, it is difficult.

The environment also contributes to behaviour. My Victorian school was originally a 4 form entry, it’s now a 7 form entry. We can build extra blocks but we can’t widen the corridors or plumbing! Pupils can’t eat inside as we have a staggered timetable for each Key Stage. There is never any free space. My workroom was originally a locker room but we got rid of them 6 years ago for extra workspace or classrooms. We don’t have a Staffroom for instance, that’s now a classroom.

Children are unhappy and so are staff. Just so you know OP, I hate uniform. I am always the “bad guy” trying to enforce rules set by SLT who hide in their offices.

It’s not a ‘ no coats’ rule though, it’s no coats inside. So.. take a big enough bag?
The staff are warmly dressed? Good for them. You know teachers in general have no say over these policies?

So excuses I've heard on this thread:

1. Not having equipment disrupts lessons so is a big problem.

So the natural justice is the child has to manage without the equipment and catch up at home. If the ruler was needed to underline a heading they do it at home. That's proportionate. An hour after school detention isn't.
If the real issue is the child is being disruptive then punish that. Don't punish not having a ruler.

1. Kids are all nightmares and parents are misguided in thinking theirs are angels.

If teachers were telling me my DD was a pain and disruptive or rude I would be 100% supportive of the teacher. But they aren't, they tell me she's a great kid / joy to teach / really conscientious/ got one of the highest attainment points scores. She gets multiple awards for hard work in maths and English, like weekly top of her class for trying hard etc. yet the rules are making her hate school and affecting her attendance.

This is a very privileged middle class area, in the top 10 in the Uk state school rankings, ofsted outstanding and yet parents are pulling their kids out because of the new behaviour policy.

It's a problem.

It’s awful. MATS don't realise it’s the kiddos who don’t go to uni that will be training to do really important jobs - everybody needs plumbers, builders, electricians, cooks. Everything is about pushing to get super high academic grades when in reality, if there’s nobody left to do the ‘perceived as mundane jobs’, we’ll all be up shit creek without a paddle!

‘Nice middle class children? 🤔
I didn’t say where my school or what the children were like.
Your reply was sweeping and judgemental.

I think there is always a way to engage the children you speak of above - perhaps it’s the one size fits all approach & not enough time and kindness by MATS & teaching staff today that creates barriers to learning for ANY child ….not only those who come from families who you seem to think cannot be bothered enough with their children.

If modern schools were more child focussed (and please don’t say they are because they’re not), I think the children you speak of would prove to be much more than just the background you say they’re coming from.

Yes to the short lunch breaks. Mine don’t bother eating at school. They can’t get and eat lunch, packed lunches are stuffed in their bag all day so not favourable.
they come home ravenous and eat shit. None of that is favourable.

That's such a shame they can't even go to the library. DD loves spending time in the library at break or lunch reading.

The thing is of course eating will cause cleaning to be needed but that doesn't mean they can just not provide enough space for lunch because it will need cleaning!

At Dd's school there is quite a large canteen to eat in and lots of outside seating areas too. But if raining/snowing then they can eat in their form rooms too so there is more indoor space to eat.

Things mentioned on the thread was having the wrong coloured socks or bobbles or taking your jumper off when hot. And yes,while it's important to have equipment, new Y7s should be given some leniency while they settle in. Alongside this was the fact that the same punishment is given for forgetting your ruler as for swearing at a teacher. And the behaviour in these schools is getting worse not better so it clearly isn't working.

Contrast with my Dd's school plenty of rules and discipline but sensible and in proportion. The result is a very well behaved school where the students thrive and achieve.

My DD's friends who are at 2 of these schools in our area have supportive homes. Most of them would be described as middle class families. One of the school's is in a wealthy area but on edge of a less well off area and the other is not but on the edge of the wealthy area so essentially both are full of plenty of middle class children. Traditionally, they were known as ok schools. My DD's school happens to be in a working class area but still has a bit of a mix. The trouble is it sounds like these schools are chaos and those who do want to work and progress are being disillusioned and are giving up.

I am afraid you might be correct there. It seems that discipline of any kind and interest in working in school has disappeared. It seems to be the current ethos and those who do want to succeed must despair. I am very glad I am not of this generation and I grieve that my grandchildren are, and are experiencing these difficulties.

My Y7 DD like many is quite little. She already has a big rucksack full of books which she struggles with. But now you want them having to bring holdalls??

And what happens you’re their coat is wet through from walking to school in the pouring rain - shove it in the same bag as all their work books? Smudged homework, ruined equipment.

And noone has said teachers have a say over these policies. It doesn't stop us talking about it, though!

Wearing coats inside a school building is a safety issue, if you can’t see the pupils uniform then they could be anyone from outside and this causes a safeguarding issue. My school had two people enter the building one morning looking for one of our pupils to beat him up! It’s not just a head teacher with an ego problem, it’s to keep the pupils safe

Don't they wear lanyards? These could easily be worn over a coat for ID. Same as college students do.

This overcomplicates the issue when they could just wear visible uniform and remove their coat indoors…actually they are outdoor clothing…

What happens when a student inevitably forgets/doesn’t want to wear their lanyard? There will always need to be some kind of rule, so why not the easiest one?

My son started secondary school in September and they have a rule that coats have to be in bags - can’t be on the back of chairs. I find it ridiculous on a day when they have food tech and PE. Or simply when it’s been raining (all December for us) everything gets soaked. I just can’t see the logic - someone enlighten me please!

Fire regulations, most likely. If all coats are on back of chairs, some will end up on the floor and block safe exit in the event of a fire. Shame they don’t have lockers or anywhere else to leave them when wet, though. I would be taking a plastic bag in in case of rain.