To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

She didn't consent, maybe RTFT

From the BBC

Spanish World Cup-winning footballer Jenni Hermoso has testified to a Madrid court that a kiss from former football federation president Luis Rubiales was "not consensual".

You have misunderstood me.

I am not suggesting that she consented at all. Quite the opposite. Just that the OP's hypothesis is dumb.

Apologies, I indeed misread your post

Yeah, I was saying that it doesn't make any sense to say there must be more to this and suggest that she always hated him, because if you hated someone you wouldn't let them kiss you like that, so it would definitely be unconsenting and therefore a sexual assault.

There is a long backstory, not just with Rubiales and Vilda but also with the previous coach.

But that doesn't change what happened to Jenni Hermoso

@CalishataFolkart it doesn’t though

This post is asking for opinions. Not legal frameworks

You said most in the real world wouldn’t consider it sexual assault. Spanish law exists in the real world, so unless we decide to ignore the law because we don’t agree with it, it does matter.

@CalishataFolkart now you’re being facetious.

This happened quite a while after the final whistle - why then, why her? He can't even say it was heat of the moment stuff.

@Pickledonionout I don’t understand what you mean? I am answering you in good faith.

A person may have the opinion that it is ok to drive a car having had a certain amount of alcohol. In England they would be correct (legally), in Scotland they would be incorrect (legally). Laws and the consequences of disobeying them are part of the real world.

@harerunner out of curiosity have you ever taken any sexual harassment training at work?

I think the back story is relevant... Irrespective of whether what happened was technically sexual assault - and I'm more minded to think I was than when I started the thread - if Rubiales wasn't such a misogynistic jerk who Hermoso and the team thought was a nasty bit of work , and who then tried to gaslight and bully his way out of situation rather than apologise, I doubt this would be going to court.

If a man who was otherwise well respected and liked had briefly kissed Hermoso as part of the celebrations, she may well not have even sought an apology, and had she done so, a sincere apology by the man would have almost certainly been enough. I don't imagine for a moment it would have escalated to court.

Rubiales' character is a major part of why this has escalated to court.

No, I haven't.

Rubiales' actions are why this is escalated to court

Jenni Hermoso was even granted a restraining order to keep him away from her

https://news.sky.com/story/luis-rubiales-arrives-at-madrid-court-to-be-questioned-over-jenni-hermoso-kiss-12961702

I'm struggling to see this as sexual assault tbh. It was just a poorly judged and inappropriate celebration kiss.

YABU.

But you know you are, as you haven’t enabled voting.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the individual (victim) to assert their boundaries and expect people to respect them, even if these boundaries are different to most people's - e.g. it's perfectly fine to say you never want to shake hands or hug anyone.

However, I think there also need to some objective standards of behaviour in terms of what's OK and what's not. In this instance it's clear as mud for me.

What the public's reaction seems to be indicating is that people think it's fine for a woman to kiss a man without his consent, fine for a man to kiss another man, but when a man kisses a woman in exactly the same way he should lose his career, get a criminal record/put on sex offenders list, and maybe spend a few years in prison.

It's all a bit contradictory to me, although for that reason I'd have probably exercised more caution were I this guy.

I'm glad the posters whose opinion is that it isn't sexual assault, are in the minority and not backed up by law. Hopefully makes the world a little safer for women, that such thinking isn't so widespread.

I just don't get why nobody is equally outraged about the incident posted earlier where a woman did exactly the same thing to a jockey in the same week. Grabbed his head and forcibly kissed him on the lips. As the owner of the horse he was riding she was in a position of power.

Saying that "we'd support him too" isn't really the same as actively supporting him and calling for the woman to be prosecuted. I mean, there have been actual protests over it happening to the woman but pretty much radio silence about it happening to the man (was only raised in comparison to the football incident).

Maybe because not everything has to turn into a discussion about men and this thread is about this specific incident. Which is absolutely fine. It doesn't need to be detailed. Nobody is being prevented from starting a thread about the jockey. If there are articles of him saying it was not consensual and he is complaining by all means start a thread about it and link to them.
I'll be right there, saying it's absolutely unacceptable behaviour and he has the right to feel unwanted kissing is an assault. Because it is.

But this thread is about this woman. This incident. Whataboutery is not needed.

This thread has reminded me of an...incident. It was a few decades ago, shortly after I left university. I was on holiday with a group. One of the male members of the group, in whom I had absolutely no romantic/sexual interest, came to my room and kissed me, using a similar degree of force/control as in this case. I couldn't move my head away. He was trying to push his tongue into my mouth, and I was trying to keep my lips closed. I had my arms up between our bodies, trying to push him away. I remember being very afraid of what if he went further. What if I couldn't stop him. What if he raped me. I was lucky. I managed to push him far enough back to speak, and talked him down. Now, I'm sure he would say that he didn't sexually assault me because he had fallen for me, and was just expressing it. And I certainly didn't report it to anyone (in those days I'd probably have been laughed at). But yes, I would say that a non consensual kiss can be a form of sexual assault.

I haven't been on AIBU much for a while so forgot there was voting. I'd have enabled it had I realised. Besides, the number and nature of the comments gives me an idea lf how it would have gone!

It's totally relevant and particularly so for happening at a sporting event in the same week. It's an example of exactly the same thing but with the genders reversed so it provides a comparative context.

I mean, can you imagine if an employer announced a pay rise for all male employees and then told the women who protested to stop their whataboutery because 'not everything has to turn into a discussion about women's rights and this announcement is about this specific policy for male employees'. 😂

This is what I'd call a genuine sexual assault. Had Rubiales tried to stick his tongue down Hermoso's throat or given any indication it was a sexually motivated act then I'd probs view it in a similar light.

@TheZoehan sexual assault is about power, more than sex. It’s a way of asserting dominance. It doesn’t have to be sexually motivated to be a sexual assault.