To think this isn't sexual assault...

[harerunner]

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

I think its difficult to judge as we weren't there

I watched it live as did millions of people world wide, we even had a thread on it here on MN.

@artifan , your post is extremely sad and disturbing. I'm so sorry that your father responded like that and minimised everything you had to say. I can imagine how very confusing and shaming that felt for you. What you experienced was sexual assault and it was not in any way your fault. You have nothing to blame yourself for

Why do people have the idea that “explicit verbal consent” means “Can I do xyz?”

Assume you and a new partner are kissing. Every time they put their hand somewhere new on your body they say something like, “Do you like that?” “Does that feel good?” “Is this ok?”

That’s all. If that level of communication isn’t “practical” then those people should not be having sex because the chances of a misunderstanding are too high.

I'm sorry for how your father and therapist treated you.

They were wrong.

What happened to you is classified as Assault by Penetration, and it is clearly described as an offence in the Sexual Offences Act 2003

Oh @artifan you have been so let down. What you experienced was a clear cut, unequivocal sexual assault.

A stranger followed you, groped you and penetrated you. That is absolutely sexual assault.

I cannot imagine what a therapist or survivors charity were doing telling you otherwise but they were wrong. Just like your dad.

I'm so sorry

@CalishataFolkart

Assume you and a new partner are kissing. Every time they put their hand somewhere new on your body they say something like, “Do you like that?” “Does that feel good?” “Is this ok? ”That’s all. If that level of communication isn’t “practical” then those people should not be having sex because the chances of a misunderstanding are too high.

Firstly, asking the question after you've touched is surely too late when it comes to consent. Based on what you're saying if Rubiales said "was that ok?" after the kiss that would have been ok?!?

Secondly, yes, verbal communication is clearly important when it comes to sexual activity, but no, asking "is that ok?" or "does that feel good?" after each and every new move - quite apart from it arguably being too late in terms of consent - isn't really much better than constantly asking "can I do this? Can I touch there?".... and also is something that I've never experienced in all the dozens of "encounters" i've had over the years.

Being honest, do all you sexual encounters involve such a continuous running commentary after each change? I very much doubt it!

Just to follow up, asking "permission" (or more often "shall I get a condom") has always occurred before actual sex, but rarely, if ever in the intervening build up.

I think consent is a complex and nuanced - yet vitally important - subject. Some posters are determined to frame it as a simple and easy, but in reality it isn't nearly as super straightforward as they presume... We're not doing women any favours by pretending it is - much as I wish it was!

Can we agree that grabbing an employee’s head and kissing them is not the same as a sexual encounter with an intimate partner?

People are comparing the two and coming to the disingenuous conclusion that because he didn’t explicitly ask for consent means that them not explicitly asking for consent = they have committed sexual assault.

You’re right, there is nuance. So it is ok to touch a partner somewhere new, find out if they like it and move your hand if they don’t. Because they have already consented to being touched by you in general. What you are discovering is the nuance of how far that consent goes.

What you call a “running commentary” other people might call dirty talk 🤷🏻 Each to their own.

@harerunner- these people do not know each other. They aren't in a social situation. The man is in a position of power. He takes a woman by the head and kisses her on the mouth in public. Surely you can see that is completely unlike any sort of shall we/ shan't we potentially sexual encounter?

@harerunner you’re not doing women any favours pretending it’s this hard, either.

YANBU I can see where you’re coming from

I’ve seen many male football celebrations where players kiss each other or their manager does, usually on the head but still.

this man is a sexist oaf, but I’m not sure whether the label of sexual assault is accurate in terms of the context

He’s not another player or her manager.

@CalishataFolkart he was still celebrating the new, for his country.

And if your CEO celebrates some good news for the company and decided to do so by grabbing your head and forcing you to kiss him that's okay then?

I don't think it really matters what is and is not considered consent in a personal romantic encounter when this incident was neither.

This man was unprofessional, his actions were inappropriate and his grabbing of her and kissing her was assault. The fact he kissed her instead of punching her made it a sexual rather than physical assault.

Those facts do not change because of how a couple on a date might behave or communicate consent.

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat if he had been hugging me beforehand and then kissed me I’d be annoyed, go to HR and he’d likely be fired

arrested and charged with assault? No

Woo-hoo we got that ten billion pound contract, let's celebrate. Come here. Mwaaah.

There's no way that doesn't end with a call to acas.

Why not? Because you wouldn't choose to go to the police, or because you think the police wouldn't arrest him?

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat because most in the real world wouldn’t consider that sexual assault.

sexual harassment? Sure
assault? No

What matters here is what the Spanish law considers it.

The Spanish law has changed so that sexual harassment comes under the term sexual assault now

So therefore under Spanish law it is correct to call sexual harassment sexual assault

The lengths some posters are going to, to try and prove a point that a man forcibly kissing a woman isn't sexual assault. Did she want the kiss, she says not. Did he force her to kiss him by grabbing her head. Yes. What that has to do with a consensual sexual relationship is completely grabbing at straws.

It's almost like some posters have an agenda to make sure men can do what the fuck they want to women...

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

If she hated the guy, why would she consent to him kissing her like that?

Incredible, isn’t it? And it’s the sort of thing that leads to the poor poster up above believing it when men tell her that she wasn’t sexually assaulted when a stranger followed her, groped her, and tried to insert his fingers in her vagina.

Stop minimising and excusing men who feel that unfettered access to women’s bodies is their right.