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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this isn't sexual assault...

724 replies

harerunner · 02/01/2024 17:21

I saw a story on the BBC about Jenni Hermoso testifying in a sexual assault case about her kiss with Luis Rubiales. Not having seen the kiss, I decided to look at a video of it, a link of which I've put below.

Firstly, i need to say I think sexual assault is extremely serious, and it's appalling how low the conviction rate is for sexual crimes. Men get away with far too much, and it's sickening.

However, in all honesty, i wouldn't class the kiss here as sexual assault. This is a lengthy full body embrace followed by a very brief peck of a kiss.

If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent.

Surely there's much more to this... i reckon she hated the guy before this incident and this was a way to get him back for other shitty and belittling treatment from him over the years.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
harerunner · 03/01/2024 08:04

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 04:49

@harerunner "If something like this is classed as sexual assault, then it surely makes it impossible to initiate anything physical at all without explicit verbal consent."

Yep. It does. Good.

Interested in your username- any significance to it?

As i just posted, the idea that every "escalation" in physical touch requires explicit verbal consent just isn't the practical or realistic. If not doing so counts as sexual assault then we're pretty much all sexual abusers!

And no, my username has nothing to do with this thread. I've been on MN a while.

OP posts:
harerunner · 03/01/2024 08:05

IncompleteSenten · 03/01/2024 07:12

Seems like it's the word sexual that's got some denying it and the fact it's football related that makes it acceptable to some others.

So let's go back to basics. Remove football. Don't bring football back into it. Don't reply with yes but football.. man... Excited...celebration...

It's a work event. It's a manager interacting with an employee at a formal work event.

Was it inappropriate?

Is it appropriate to have your head grabbed and be forcibly kissed at a work event? When you are receiving an award or formal recognition at a work event?

Was it an assault?

Is grabbing someone by the head and restraining them in order to do something to them that they have not consented to, an assault?

Is grabbing someone by the head then forcing a kiss on their lips an assault?

What is a manager grabbing an employee by the head and forcing their lips onto the employee's lips at a work event if not inappropriate and an assault?

What is the difference between an assault and a sexual assault if not intimacy?

Yes or no - is a manager grabbing an employee by the head to restrain them while forcing a kiss on them an action that should result in the employee reporting the manager to HR?

And the million dollar question - what category of assault would HR place the manager's actions under?

Edited

I can't fault your logic 👍🏻

OP posts:
harerunner · 03/01/2024 08:08

I understand that someone people have different opinions on whether it's good to ask someone explicitly before kissing someone... Even if you think it's a good idea, it's a stretch to believe that not asking explicitly is akin to sexual assault which is what some posters seem to be implying...

If that were the case, I have assaulted and been assaulted by dozens of people of the years! I've never asked or been asked for a kiss... it's just naturally happened.

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 08:14

Also. Context. Workplace.

pickledandpuzzled · 03/01/2024 08:14

@harerunner ‘naturally happened’ will have involved lots of little cues- eye gazing, mouth movements, leaning… and almost certainly been a slow initial movement giving one party lots of time to move away (and the other the opportunity to pretend he wasn’t moving in at all!).
I bet it didn’t naturally happen when s/he grabbed your head and held you still.

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 08:20

A man in a position of authority grabs you by the head and kisses you on the mouth in a very public place. On what planet is that OK?

Pelham678 · 03/01/2024 08:42

ElephantMilk · 02/01/2024 23:40

Or she could've just said "look mate, don't you dare kiss me again like you do to your laddish mates" rather than trying to ruin his life over an ill judged kiss.

And there, right there, is a complete misunderstanding of power dynamics.

It is not easy in the heat of the moment to tell a senior member of your sporting authority in effect to piss off in front of millions of people. Do you think a man who has repeatedly failed to be contrite or admit he was wrong would have just accepted that. Of course not, he would have used his power to punish her, as he tried to do even though the world was watching.

She is not ruining his life. He is ruining his life. This is the same mealy-mouthed excuse that dodgy universities use to get women not to report serious sexual assaults.

And let's be clear: if he had apologised and admitted he was wrong, it would still have been assault with a sexual element. The reason it's worse than someone lightly slapping you round the face (which would also be assault) is the invasive sexual element to it. I would much prefer being slightly hit round the face than kissed against my will on the lips. It's different from being kissed on the cheek. Why? Because it's sexual. No-one kisses me on the lips apart from someone I am in a sexual relationship with or someone I want to be in a sexual relationship with.

I don't think it is a habitual thing for male footballers to kiss each other on the lips, which is why you found photos of it, because it was unusual, and so noteworthy (but most of those were not on the lips anyway and one of those that was, was a fan and it wasn't consensual). I have been to hundreds of football matches, and never, ever seen it. I have never seen a manager kiss a player on the lips. I have never seen an owner of a club or a club official kiss a player at all.

You really need to question yourselves you two men why you are so invested in defending male entitlement and their right to inappropriately act towards women rather than the right of young women not to be assaulted. Especially as at least one of you actually has a daughter.

Or you're just goady fuckers here for entertainment.

Anyway, you've completely failed to provide a convincing defence for this man (because there isn't one) and just rehashing the same sorry arguments that just don't hold up.

Pelham678 · 03/01/2024 08:46

pickledandpuzzled · 03/01/2024 08:14

@harerunner ‘naturally happened’ will have involved lots of little cues- eye gazing, mouth movements, leaning… and almost certainly been a slow initial movement giving one party lots of time to move away (and the other the opportunity to pretend he wasn’t moving in at all!).
I bet it didn’t naturally happen when s/he grabbed your head and held you still.

This.

Which is why all those people using the stupid argument that we'd never be able to kiss anyone if we didn't allow this arsehole to get away with it are so disingenuously wrong (disingenuous because I don't believe anyone is that stupid that they don't know that people give cues that they are wanting to be kissed in a consensual situation and as @pickledandpuzzled explains give the other the chance to move away, unlike this man).

Pelham678 · 03/01/2024 08:53

CalishataFolkart · 03/01/2024 01:18

How long does a non-consensual kiss have to last before it counts?

Italian uproar over judge's 10-second groping rule - BBC News

Oh god yes, it's like that awful Italian judge that also caused uproar! @Westernesse and @ElephantMilk probably back him as well. Only ten seconds after all...

Video posted on Instagram

Italian uproar over judge's 10-second groping rule

Young Italians object to the acquittal of a school caretaker who admitted groping a teenage student.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66174352

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 09:03

"Or she could've just said "look mate, don't you dare kiss me again like you do to your laddish mates" rather than trying to ruin his life over an ill judged kiss."

How to say you're a man without saying you're a man.

Marblessolveeverything · 03/01/2024 09:56

It is so sad to see the minimising and victim blaming. And yes @harerunner sadly most women experience sexual assaults quite frequently. As many have said consent and context is everything.

But to the people commenting on "ruining" a man's career. He had the opportunity to admit he was wrong and apologise, take the learning and repent. Instead he continued to literally call her a liar when the incident was beamed around the world.

IncompleteSenten · 03/01/2024 10:25

Marblessolveeverything · 03/01/2024 09:56

It is so sad to see the minimising and victim blaming. And yes @harerunner sadly most women experience sexual assaults quite frequently. As many have said consent and context is everything.

But to the people commenting on "ruining" a man's career. He had the opportunity to admit he was wrong and apologise, take the learning and repent. Instead he continued to literally call her a liar when the incident was beamed around the world.

That is one thing that drives me up the bloody wall.

It is said by an astonishingly large number of people in any situation where a man has behaved badly towards a woman

Man behaves in completely unacceptable, inappropriate and in some cases actually illegal way towards woman.

Woman accused of ruining his life / career / marriage if she does not quietly accept man's behaviour / keep his secret / if she 'makes a fuss'.

It's part of the wider picture that is women being seen as responsible for the actions (and inactions) of men.

From the trivial man doesn't send his mother a birthday card, it's his partner's fault to the serious man gropes woman and woman must protect the man's career from the consequences of his actions or those consequences will be her fault.

Not his for doing it. Hers for highlighting it.

Be kind. Don't make a fuss. Put everyone else first. Do everything. Men don't see mess. Men don't know how to do simple daily living tasks. Men are helpless victims who don't have any control over themselves. Be Nice. Prioritise men's feelings over all else. Etc, etc, etfuckingc.

It's revolting. It truly is. I'm pig sick of it.

And if I was a man I'd be bloody insulted that I was seen by society as an animal incapable of controlling myself, behaving appropriately, being able to carry out domestic or child care tasks or taking any responsibility for my actions.

I'm genuinely surprised more men don't see it that way. After all, they're the ones being massively insulted by those assumptions.

They're being told you're a useless incompetent bag of shit who needs others to step in in practically every situation because you can't sort shit out or control yourself.

I mean, that's pretty insulting, right?

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 10:44

It's also important to remember that acharfe of sexual assault usually has no impact at all on a man's career.

StaunchMomma · 03/01/2024 10:52

I'm glad one of those female footballers has been solid in her non-consensual approach. It sounds like the coaches have been more than a bit handsy with the female players for a while.

The message needs to get through to all that hands, and mouths, need to be kept to themselves, unless invited. If this case helps with that message, good! I will not waste time feeling sorry for the creep who forces women into locking lips with him.

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 11:01

Consent is something you can withdraw at any point. You can't do that while unconscious.

CurlewKate · 03/01/2024 11:02

Sorry-wrong thread.

Hereward1332 · 03/01/2024 11:42

I find it amazing that this is even a question. It is indecent assault, according to the law. There was no consent nor was any sought. Should it be? It may be perceived as lower down the scale of harm, but still harmful.

There is unequivocally no explicit consent sought or given. In the real world, consent is not always explicit so the question is whether there is a reasonable basis for assuming an implicit consent. This basis differs according to the relationship between the two parties, and is affected by culture, positions of power, age and others. The greater the difference, the less you can rely on an assumption of consent. Your Boss has a greater obligation to ensure a kiss is consensual than your partner as it is less reasonable to assume implicit consent exists. Obviously any sign of hesitatance removes consent. Kissing with no reasonable belief of consent is assault, kssing with a reasonable belief of consent just may be.

bananamangoes · 03/01/2024 11:51

This is about letting men know their place

bananamangoes · 03/01/2024 11:51

Which is.. women are not their property

artifan · 03/01/2024 11:58

I think its difficult to judge as we weren't there. It does sound like she went through something unpleasant and at the least she is owed an apology.

Having said that, it can be quite easy to conflate something innocuously meant into something horrible. I'm a bit ashamed of this but when I was 15, I went through one of these unpleasant kind of grey area incidents, basically stranger followed me, groped me and tried to put his fingers inside me. stupidly I froze up, I felt embarassed to tell anyone, it was in a public place, my parents were around but not next to me, we were in a crowd and they weren't aware and I felt ashamed of them knowing, so I said nothing. I think I would have been blamed by them, my father was quite shouty about things. I just disppeared into my own head somewhere out of my body. I used to do this a lot if I was shouted at at home or my parents were fighting or something.

Some time after this there was a discussion in my family. I had been going through a tough time, teenage angst, self harm, getting into fights, tearful a lot, unable to concentrate at school, eating too much. My father and I had a discussion about the risk of rape and being careful at parties, drinks being spiked etc, and I blurted out about what happened a year before. I had decided I had been "sexually assaulted" and that I knew what it was like to have "abuse trauma" (my father had done some work as a church minister with sexual abuse survivors, I think I just wanted his approval somehow). So I mentioned what happened and quite rightly, my father pointed out that I was NOT sexually assaulted and that most girls get touched like that, its part of life. He was offended that I was appropriating the terms sexual assault. he did get quite angry with me and told me I was toxic making sexual assault all about me, just trying to ruin his evening with my disclosure. I would like to say that I realised the error of my ways and that I was being offensive, but the idea that I had experienced some sort of abuse never left me. there had been some inappropriate tickling and touching over my clothes from a relative when I was small, nothing damaging, and an incident with some boys at primary school, and again I think I believed I had been violated. The idea that maybe this is common for girls and I was making a fuss did cross my mind, but I didn't feel any real guilt over how my labelling these experiences could affect real victims.

In my late 20s I went to a sexual assault survivors counsellor, (my psychiatrist had suggested it was seeing her for what was later diagnosed as a personality disorder, but she was concerned I had been through some sort of trauma, as personality disorders can be linked to that and she referred me to an incest and rape survivors organisation. it took them 15 minutes of an interview for them to tell me firmly that no I had not been sexually assaulted, and didn't need their services.

I feel dead ashamed of myself now for casting myself as a victim, in my defence I was young and I never reported these incidents to anyone, but I can see how easy it can be for our minds to cast some low level incidents into something more sinister. I think there is more to this story about the spanish footballers though, we only know what the media tells us. If the accuser was genuinely violated, then it is not for us to cast aspersions.

Sending Flowers to all those who have had genuine serious assaults, for what its worth I don't think even unwanted kisses should happen but I agree with @Westernesse that there is definitely a spectrum and I think sometimes its best to move on and not give the lower level stuff headspace. After reading the Sarah Evered case I would report indecent exposure though, as that can lead to bigger things.

IncompleteSenten · 03/01/2024 12:14

That is in no way a grey area.
That was a sexual assault.

IncompleteSenten · 03/01/2024 12:16

"I think its difficult to judge as we weren't there"

We don't need to have been there. It was recorded and is fully available to view.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/01/2024 12:17

I think I may have misunderstood. Artifan, are you saying that you've been told it's not sexual assault if a complete stranger tries to stick his fingers into your vagina?

That is not a low level incident. It's not "common" for girls to experience, and it wouldn't make it acceptable if it were.

One in six women is subjected to rape or attempted rape during her lifetime. It wouldn't become less traumatic for women if it was as high as 50% of women.

artifan · 03/01/2024 12:21

IncompleteSenten · 03/01/2024 12:14

That is in no way a grey area.
That was a sexual assault.

I haven't seen all the footage all the way through. I believe you though. I do think its more likely that she was assaulted, she is an adult and fully functioning, I assume. I was an unstable and rather arrogant teenager/20 something, so I do appreciate that my experiences and hers are worlds apart. Even if it didn't meet the legal definition, (and I don't know much about Spanish law), it isn't acceptable

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision basically they said it wasn't anything out of the ordinary for a girl to experience and certainly it wasn't something the police would take seriously. I was given the impression that I was probably making a fuss about nothing very much. It could be I am misremembering their reaction, I am in my 40s now, but I have never forgotten both my fathers and the counsellors indignation over my "playing the victim" as my father called it. the counsellor told me maybe get some help for the BPD and take up a voluntary job to focus on myself a bit less.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 03/01/2024 12:29

artifan · 03/01/2024 11:58

I think its difficult to judge as we weren't there. It does sound like she went through something unpleasant and at the least she is owed an apology.

Having said that, it can be quite easy to conflate something innocuously meant into something horrible. I'm a bit ashamed of this but when I was 15, I went through one of these unpleasant kind of grey area incidents, basically stranger followed me, groped me and tried to put his fingers inside me. stupidly I froze up, I felt embarassed to tell anyone, it was in a public place, my parents were around but not next to me, we were in a crowd and they weren't aware and I felt ashamed of them knowing, so I said nothing. I think I would have been blamed by them, my father was quite shouty about things. I just disppeared into my own head somewhere out of my body. I used to do this a lot if I was shouted at at home or my parents were fighting or something.

Some time after this there was a discussion in my family. I had been going through a tough time, teenage angst, self harm, getting into fights, tearful a lot, unable to concentrate at school, eating too much. My father and I had a discussion about the risk of rape and being careful at parties, drinks being spiked etc, and I blurted out about what happened a year before. I had decided I had been "sexually assaulted" and that I knew what it was like to have "abuse trauma" (my father had done some work as a church minister with sexual abuse survivors, I think I just wanted his approval somehow). So I mentioned what happened and quite rightly, my father pointed out that I was NOT sexually assaulted and that most girls get touched like that, its part of life. He was offended that I was appropriating the terms sexual assault. he did get quite angry with me and told me I was toxic making sexual assault all about me, just trying to ruin his evening with my disclosure. I would like to say that I realised the error of my ways and that I was being offensive, but the idea that I had experienced some sort of abuse never left me. there had been some inappropriate tickling and touching over my clothes from a relative when I was small, nothing damaging, and an incident with some boys at primary school, and again I think I believed I had been violated. The idea that maybe this is common for girls and I was making a fuss did cross my mind, but I didn't feel any real guilt over how my labelling these experiences could affect real victims.

In my late 20s I went to a sexual assault survivors counsellor, (my psychiatrist had suggested it was seeing her for what was later diagnosed as a personality disorder, but she was concerned I had been through some sort of trauma, as personality disorders can be linked to that and she referred me to an incest and rape survivors organisation. it took them 15 minutes of an interview for them to tell me firmly that no I had not been sexually assaulted, and didn't need their services.

I feel dead ashamed of myself now for casting myself as a victim, in my defence I was young and I never reported these incidents to anyone, but I can see how easy it can be for our minds to cast some low level incidents into something more sinister. I think there is more to this story about the spanish footballers though, we only know what the media tells us. If the accuser was genuinely violated, then it is not for us to cast aspersions.

Sending Flowers to all those who have had genuine serious assaults, for what its worth I don't think even unwanted kisses should happen but I agree with @Westernesse that there is definitely a spectrum and I think sometimes its best to move on and not give the lower level stuff headspace. After reading the Sarah Evered case I would report indecent exposure though, as that can lead to bigger things.

I am so sorry you have been let down by both your father and a therapist and led to believe that you were in any way to blame either for what happened or for calling it what it is - sexual assault

It is never okay for someone to follow you, grope you or try to take that further. This should never be a part of life and you are quite within your rights to call it what it is and to make as much fuss as you like.

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