Uncle's reaction to education discussion

[Krankopi]

Family gathering in Southern England over Xmas with extended family and we drove over from West Wales where we've lived for past 18 months. I'm chit chatting to aunt and catching her up on our lives and tell her about plans for DS education.

Our DS turns 3 next year and we're opting to send him to a Welsh-speaking pre-school from September and then if all goes well to Welsh speaking primary school.

The school is very good, recent investment and a few neighbours whose kids go there really rave about it. I studied French at uni and have very open attitude to other language so think it would be great opportunity for DS to be bilingual From young age.

If there were any unforeseen issues and it doesn't work out then there are English speaking primaries and secondaries in area also.

Uncle overheard the conversation and chimed in 'but you're not Welsh!' and 'it's a dead language'. I attempted to explain benefits of bilingualism, fact our area has quite a lot of Welsh speakers and DS will grow up there etc but fell on deaf ears and he really went for it at that point.

He seemed properly offended by the whole thing as if we were somehow betraying our roots (we're English and DS also born in England). It was completely ridiculous. He then proceeded to insult the Welsh, their language before aunt told him to cool it and convo moved on.

His opinion about DS education is irrelevant but thinking back to his reaction has really angered me. It wasn't just that he didn't agree, his blood seemed to really boil. He is a bit of a little Englander type who voted for Brexit so I shouldn't be surprised but I can't understand how someone could take such offense to going to Welsh school in Wales.

The more I think about it, the more I want to say something to him to put him in his place. I find his attitude disgraceful and I'm so close to writing or calling to give him piece of my mind. AIBU? Should I just forget the whole thing?

Maybe making my point another way will work better, like writing next years Xmas card in Welsh.

It does greatly sadden me these threads especially as learning 2 languages is never a bad thing. Remember for many children in wales, English is their second language so they are naturally learning in the language of their home. Also that formal learning in Wales starts much later than in England and is much more a Scandinavian model with early years based on play which mumsnet always seem to like. It is not difficult to support dc as schools support parents.

You don't think speaking Wales in Wales is useful? Or is Les useful than say French or Chinese?

No he does not have a point , the school will be well funded and having Welsh will benefit him in the future. I would have had the discussion there and then with him .

Bilingualism in any languages does help with learning additional languages, they don’t have to be related (see eg https://www.earth.com/news/bilingual-children-learn-faster/), makes sense if you think about it as a bilingual child has an earlier understanding that words and grammar can be different in different languages. It also probably helps with some early cognitive skills, including developing theory of mind, which then also obviously impacts on social skills. And, as someone said, it protects against dementia in later life (if you use both languages regularly). Obviously Welsh is a useful and culturally rich language, but all of that would be true even if it wasn’t, Klingon would have the same benefits!

edit - but no I personally wouldn’t bother going back to argue it out with the uncle!

You know op speaks English right? She's not forbidding him from speaking English or from learning French when he's older? No one is saying kids in Wales should be socially isolated from non Welsh speakers less their brain be tainted with other languages

I have spent many years working with children who have English as an additional language and who either had both parents or one parent who spoke a different language.

I'd like to reassure you that these children were generally very bright indeed and would overtake their English peers as , being bilingual is an exceptional brain training exercise in itself.

They might seem a bit slow at first due to understanding and needing to translate but soon become very proficient at it and suddenly fly.

Good on you OP. And Welsh is a superb language to be proficient in... let's be honest, if you live there then it's best to learn to speak it.
Detractors are just being narrow minded.
( I also speak as a bilingual.)

I didn’t speak any English when I started school in the UK (technically a lie, I had been taught fuck off by a neighbour) it was fine, I was fluent within the year to the standards of British children of the same age. My son spoke very little English when he started nursery, again, not an issue at all, although he did sometimes pretend not to understand when asked not to do something! Our two year old doesn’t speak English, she’ll start learning it formally at school, which where we live now will start when shes six.

Love this, OP. Not sure how you can get much more authentically British than learning Welsh, which (edit!) comes from the language that was spoken across Britain before the Anglo-Saxons turned up. Your uncle is a tit. Admittedly I am a massive language nerd, but I would do exactly the same if I lived in Wales.

There’s certainly plenty of evidence that starting a language very young is much more likely to end in mastery than starting later. Same can be true of music and sport. However kids in bilingual schools can struggle in ways that are not being acknowledged on this thread. If they do not have a particular facility for languages it can make school much more of a challenge than a monolingual one.

Yes. Every single English person to ever have existed. Including OP. And the English people agreeing with OP. We're all lying and hate anyone who doesn't speak English 🤔. You sound as ridiculous as the ignorant uncle

I think what you're doing is pretty much normal, especially for west Wales.

All he has done is show his own ignorance in lots of subjects including Wales, the Welsh language, education and language acquisition.

Definitely carry on with your plan and try to limit how much you tell him about your life in the future.

53 % of Welsh voted for Brexit.

‘According to the 2021 census, the Welsh-speaking population of Wales aged three or older was 538,300 (17.8%) and nearly three quarters of the population in Wales said they had no Welsh language skills. Other estimates suggest that 889,700 people (29.2%) aged three or older in Wales could speak Welsh in June 2023.’

I live in Wales. Born in Wales. Don't speak or understand Welsh. English only.
Nothing wrong with your uncle voting to leave the EU or for having a different opinion to you.
Just leave him to his opinion and you to yours. Not worth falling out over.
It will blow over.
I have very strong views over the Welsh language but I wouldn't want to fall out with family and friends over it.
Just seems silly.
Not everyone has to think the same as you.

He will be at least bi lingual so will be able to speak English as well may be even French if he wants to work there

It's pretty usual thing to do in Wales.

We moved later - primary years - and to more English speaking border area so our kids went into English Medium schools. They still had to sit GCSE Welsh as second language - so if he does move to English medium later on it's still a huge benefit later anyway.

FIL attitude towards welsh language has been negative and hardened over time we've been here as well no fucking clue why.

The OP's son is young. If there's an issue it will be easy to spot and fix, say by moving him to an English language school.
I'd have concerns for an older child, but not one who hasn't even started school yet.

It's not a dead language. My Dad was from Ceredigion, Welsh was his primary language. He spoke English equally well. The next 2 generations of my family in Wales are the same. I can only swear, recite a nursery rhyme about 2 rats on 2 potatoes, and use very basic words, having grown up in England.
I think it's wonderful that the Welsh language is alive and kicking. It's an advantage in all sorts of ways, not a millstone!
It doesn't exclude the possibility of learning other languages as well - makes it easier I think. My Dad could speak French and Italian too.
No advice on how you deal with it, but your uncle sounds a bit ignorant OP!

It is a generalisation as it is not true of everyone. Research in the area, as in most subjects, contains differing perspectives, contradictory or inconclusive evidence, and varying conclusions.

Nor am I arguing it’s not a plus to be bilingual - I’m all for it - but personally I’d want my second language to be more broadly useful then Welsh, much though I am fond of Wales.

Do people read the links they post on this thread?

This tiny study of 49 people actually indicated that multilinguals picked up a new language faster than bilinguals. Multilinguals showed one side of their brain activated, while bilinguals used both sides.

Good on you, OP. I'd love to learn Welsh! Some depressing and infuriating replies though. Some English people are unfortunately very ignorant about language-learning, far too blinkered by the dominance of English, and incapable of realising that there is inherent value in learning another language, whatever that language is.

That’s his present for next Christmas sorted
https://www.draenogdesign.co.uk/products/pre-order-nagolig-llawen-welsh-christmas-jumper-so58-adult

don't think anything is to be gained from further engaging with your uncle regarding your DS's education. I would leave it

I do think its brilliant to send him to a Welsh speaking primary though! it's so important to preserve these less spoken languages. otherwise, before you know it - they die out.

I agree - I didn't realise how many small-minded xenophobes there were on MN!

Your uncle is an idiot, OP, but you're best off ignoring him. Don't give him headspace.

I think a lot of people don’t realise that just because the education is in the medium of Welsh, English is still taught and children will reach the same levels as children in English medium schools- they will do the English GCSEs just like the English schools etc

my children are in welsh education. Daughter is in year 3 and just started English lessons. (She’s first language English, all the kids are fluent English). In one term, she’s now on stage 9 English reading books and should be working at the same level as her English medium peers by the end of year 4.

son is in year 7. He is working at the expected level for all his subjects including English. If he chose to go to the local English medium high school instead of welsh, he would be exactly where he needs to be just fluent in another language too. i imagine he will go to an English medium college or sixth form in the future, it won’t be a problem.

you’re not taking anything away from your kids giving them a welsh medium education OP. You’re giving them an extra string to their bow by giving them full fluency in another language in addition to English.

I’d only proceed only after full research and understanding of:

1. Where you plan to live over the long term
2. The ability to realistically help your child with homework and projects in the long term
3. Whether your child be seen as an ‘outsider’ when play dates etc come up
4. Going to school events / parents’ evenings - will these be in Welsh? Will grandparents feel comfortable watching a Welsh speaking play? You may not think this is a big thing but being excluded as a parent or child can have repercussions, particularly surrounding anxiety.

My view would be to ask another parent who has been there for their opinion on the education, and whether it has been valuable. Being bilingual is a great asset but there will be alternatives, if you don’t think the best course of action.

I think you owe it to your child to do research from BOTH sides and avoid calling those who have different viewpoints: ‘Little Englanders’, or Brexit supporters.