Uncle's reaction to education discussion

[Krankopi]

Family gathering in Southern England over Xmas with extended family and we drove over from West Wales where we've lived for past 18 months. I'm chit chatting to aunt and catching her up on our lives and tell her about plans for DS education.

Our DS turns 3 next year and we're opting to send him to a Welsh-speaking pre-school from September and then if all goes well to Welsh speaking primary school.

The school is very good, recent investment and a few neighbours whose kids go there really rave about it. I studied French at uni and have very open attitude to other language so think it would be great opportunity for DS to be bilingual From young age.

If there were any unforeseen issues and it doesn't work out then there are English speaking primaries and secondaries in area also.

Uncle overheard the conversation and chimed in 'but you're not Welsh!' and 'it's a dead language'. I attempted to explain benefits of bilingualism, fact our area has quite a lot of Welsh speakers and DS will grow up there etc but fell on deaf ears and he really went for it at that point.

He seemed properly offended by the whole thing as if we were somehow betraying our roots (we're English and DS also born in England). It was completely ridiculous. He then proceeded to insult the Welsh, their language before aunt told him to cool it and convo moved on.

His opinion about DS education is irrelevant but thinking back to his reaction has really angered me. It wasn't just that he didn't agree, his blood seemed to really boil. He is a bit of a little Englander type who voted for Brexit so I shouldn't be surprised but I can't understand how someone could take such offense to going to Welsh school in Wales.

The more I think about it, the more I want to say something to him to put him in his place. I find his attitude disgraceful and I'm so close to writing or calling to give him piece of my mind. AIBU? Should I just forget the whole thing?

Maybe making my point another way will work better, like writing next years Xmas card in Welsh.

Ahh, see the point been made better than I could make it! 😂

It’s true it does, but so broad as to be meaningless.

I mean, I literally explained that in my post. I also told you that more information is freely available should you be interested in a perspective outside of your own assumptions. Or are you a specialist in this field making an educated argument? It sounds like you are just talking off the top of your head.

I think that speaking Welsh, if your son continues to live in Wales as an adult, is advantageous. Lots of public sector jobs value it, since services are available to the public in both Welsh and English. If he moves away from Wales then not so much of a plus, but at this point you just don't know what he'll do.

The downsides of can think of is that the Welsh equivalent of your uncle exist in Wales and you might be more likely to encounter them at a Welsh language only school than in an English speaking one. And if you don't speak Welsh yourself, how will you support your son with homework etc?

Well actually Brexit makes learning an European language much more important if you want to move there.
Because you're now competing with applications from other non-EU countries, knowing the language helps.
People in shortage professions will always be able to move.

My dad is from Cardiff which I think is quite Anglicised (although very patriotic!). My cousins from there don’t speak Welsh and it hasn’t held them back in their jobs.

However, his relatives in North Wales did go to a Welsh medium school (despite having only English speaking parents) and they have found being bilingual a big advantage!

I am English but I say go for it, OP! I’d love to be able to speak another language!

What you’re saying is you have a facility for languages thus your kids picked up French and German easily too. I’m good at languages but some people aren’t, and sticking them in a bilingual school doesn’t change that.

In what way is it limiting?

My DC were educated entirely through Welsh. One DS is now studying for a degree at an English RG university - learning through Welsh at school didn't make him incapable of also studying through English. DD has just applied to university - again all in England (LSE, Bath, Warwick, York and Exeter).

I can't think of a single way in which a Welsh medium education has been limiting.

You’re incorrect, being bilingual makes learning any language easier, compared to a monoglot of the same age trying to learn the same new language. My husband speaks two related languages, Swedish and English, he is equally fluent in both. As his brain already had the ability to manipulate the same concept in two different languages ans structures, it meant learning Urdu was easier for him than a monoglot learning Urdu. The frontal areas of the cortex are more able to work frequently with high levels of concentration before tiring, where as the basal ganglia becomes more efficient to the point that multitasking is easier and make it easier for language competition which means the brain is more flexible and more able to cope with varying words and concepts for the same thing/item.

Well you tried in a rather pedestrian way, but it was bollocks as per my post.

Your child, your choice. Uncle should butt out.

The more languages the better, as long as the child is NT. Otherwise, they may struggle. I’ve heard that Welsh medium schools are very popular with English incomers and the middle classes.

I’m good at languages but some people aren’t, and sticking them in a bilingual school doesn’t change that.

@Mirabai do you have any evidence for this? Competence at any skill is a mixture of nature and nurture. That's like saying there's no point giving a child piano lessons (for example) because if they're naturally musical they will probably just pick up the guitar when they're older. Obviously there's no point making a completely tone-deaf child miserable with piano lessons for years, but broadly speaking I'd err on the side of giving children opportunities, especially for skills that are easiest acquired young.

@Krankopi I'm Dutch. When I was 10, my dad was given the opportunity for a year's secondment to a UK university so off we went. Dsis and I spent a year in a British school. We came back fully bilingual and we both now live in the UK - if you were to hear us speak, you would not know that we weren't British.

In addition I also speak fluent German and French - I have a language brain and the Dutch school system supports this. I learned the latter two languages at secondary age, so there is no issue with your son starting Welsh at primary school.

Lastly, being multilingual has been shown to bring many benefits - not least delaying the progress of dementia in later life. My father, also bilingual, lost his language due to Parkinson's dementia - but he held onto language for longer than he would otherwise have done because there was a period when, if Dutch would not come, he could switch to English and express himself.

Your uncle is ignorant, as are many people on this thread.

Oh, I see, this is what you are like. You are obviously much too clever and sophisticated for me to trouble with pedestrian questions. Have a nice NYE.

I'm learning Welsh now. Just fancied it after watching Hidden and Hinterland. I lived in North Wales and Anglesey for 4 years but didn't bother learning Welsh then. I regret that now. I did pick up a fair amount of vocab though and I'm loving learning Welsh now. I only use Duolingo but it's fun and I've found it quite easy so far. Compared to Ukrainian anyway!! Good for you in learning Welsh OP!

As far as schools go, I'm not sure. I'd be worried about helping with homework would be difficult. That's the only thing I can think of though. Being bilingual will be an advantage and if his friends are Welsh speaking then even more so. As long as the school is good and he is happy there then I see no issue. Tell your uncle peidiwch siarad cach!

Ignore him, he’s an idiot.

But if you have to see him again haul out all the research about languages being great for the brain, and knowing two languages making it much easier to learn more.

It's a HUGE advantage to a Welsh person to be bilingual in Welsh and English - I sincerely regret that I never learned growing up. So many jobs in public and creative sectors either require Welsh or give preference to Welsh speakers. If there's any chance of your kids staying in Wales into adulthood then you'd be doing them a disservice by not giving them a chance to acquire Welsh in childhood.

And in your area of Wales in particular, they may find themselves locked out of a lot of local teen social life and some of the best schools if they cannot speak Welsh.

Having spent much of my life in England I don't think that most English people simply understand how alive Welsh language and culture is in many parts of Wales. Some of the responses to this thread do seem to confirm this.

I’m good at languages but some people aren’t, and sticking them in a bilingual school doesn’t change that.

It does though, particularly if they start from early primary, and there's oodles of evidence that shows that.

No, that’s a broad generalisation true for some people not others.

Some bilingual people never manage to master any language other than the ones they grew up speaking despite trying. Some monoglots can go from 0 to fluent in another language in a couple of years.

You can see patterns of facility in general populations - some immigrants never fully master the language of a country despite arriving as children; others learn it very quickly; some forget their original language others retain both.

Muscial training from a young age can greatly aid language learning - developing the ear and the memory.

No, what I'm saying is that my DC's school looked at the large amount of research into bilingualism and how an already bilingual child will generally find it easier to pick up additional languages, and decided to provide opportunities for their pupils based on that. Whether or not my own DC had a natural aptitude for languages had no bearing on the school's decision - there were a lot more pupils than just them!

If you look at research done in the area you’ll see it isn’t a generalisation, but backed up by a wide range of studies.

Does your son speak welsh already? Because if not, and if you don’t plan to teach him before he starts school, then it seems harsh to send him to a school where he won’t understand a word being said to him.

@Mirabai

There’s plenty of evidence knowing more than one language helps you pick up others, whether they are in the same group or not. Part of this will be confidence, but it is also neurological.

One example from Tokyo University below but there are many

Now, stop being a dick and go and have a nice NYE

studyfinds.org/more-languages-easier-for-brain/

This is the most common scenario in Welsh medium
Primary schools. It’s not an issue at all.