To wonder how one avoids becoming a toxic MIL

[FrenchToastLover]

Both on and offline I'm frequently hearing of all these horrendous mil/dil relationships, the majority of the time putting the mil in a bad light. I know that when you're only getting one half of the story it's easy to judge when you may not have all the facts but even so, why are so many of them so shitty?

I have 2 boys myself so it's likely I will have a dil in the future and obviously right now I think I will do my best to be a good mil but surely they all think this? I guess I'm just wondering why in so many cases it seems impossible for both parties to just get along?

I think some DILs are shit and some MILs are shit. It's a complicated situation because you are not people who chose each other.

Because people don't know how to talk to each other. The older generation adopts the "I know best" approach and the younger generation suffers in silence before either exploding or going no contact. Both things are problematic.
Obviously, there will always be sticking points. I had some hairy situations with my former MIL. What was lovely though is that she was a smart woman who always asked rather than lectured. And I was also smart enough to accept help without dictating how things should be done.

This definitely isn't universal in any way but I think a fair amount of the women who go on to be nasty MILs have probably always had a bit of cruel streak when it comes to other women. There seems to be a pipeline.

Often they start as 'Not like other girls' who rejects anything viewed as feminine or girly in order to impress men. Then they evolve into 'Pick me girls' happily simping for any male attention even if it's at the disadvantage of other girls. Then when they have sons they become the 'toxic boy mum' already seething about the day another female dares to steal the heart of her precious baby boys who she gloms far too much emotional incest on to.

And then the cycle is complete when she becomes a MIL. After years of unchecked behaviour will now callously mistreat the vile woman who dared steal away her perfect angel.

Clearly this doesn't account for every situation, or even most probably, but it's a cycle I've oft recognised in many cases.

Be straightforward and approachable. I have sons too. It's a thought op.

If as a MIL you say out loud ‘I’d not have wanted my MIL to do this’ then don’t do it!

For example my MIL arrived to stay the day we brought DS back from hospital and told me she’d have never wanted her MIL to have arrived the day she got home, so why on earth do that to someone else?!

I think demonstrating empathy and accepting that different approaches to parenting are fine is also very helpful.

My lodger is a toxic MIL

Basically, everything is DIL fault. Her son is untouchable.

She was even ranting that her DIL didn't buy her a xmas card or invite her round at all over the holidays to see the grandkids. She has literally raised a son who couldn't give a fuck about his mother at xmas, and she's blaming the DIL. I think it must be projection.

I have the good example of my lovely MIL and hopefully our boys have the lovely example of how their Dad treats his Mom

I think it's a mix of "perfect baby boy stolen by a whore throwing sex at my sweetie to steal him away" so the relationship is tarnished before it begins; blokes who will just follow the line of least resistance so when wife says her family matters more, that's what happens; blokes who don't respect their Moms enough to make their Mom's important once they're grown; genuinely just not everyone is nice; personality clash; women who think they know best because theyre old.

Move far away. Get a really demanding job so when DIL is being horrible you will be too busy to care. So many young women are so controlling and such stress bunnies. Honestly. With 2 boys expect your role of GM to be small.

Tricky. Based on threads on here, it's as likely to be the DIL who causes tensions as the MIL so from that perspective you just have to keep your fingers crossed. Things I'm thinking about (not at that stage yet)- I've said "you" but I mean "me" just as much:

-Accepting that the son's loyalty is to his wife before his mother. This is how it should be and is a sign you brought him up well so embrace it and try to avoid any situation where he feels torn between you as he should and will choose her.

-Understanding that well-meant advice may be taken as criticism. Unless absolutely critical, better to wait until you are asked than volunteer it.

-The fuller your own life is, the easier it will be to keep everything light and free with your son and DIL which in turn means they will enjoy spending time with you and not feel crushed by neediness.

-Knowing that the things your DIL does differently from you are not implicit criticisms of you. For example, advice on looking after babies etc will change between now and then- the fact that your DIL wants to follow the new guidance and not do things the way you did is not a criticism of you so no need to be defensive. Better to accept that you're both doing the same in a sense because you both did your best according to the relevant guidance at the time.

-Don't assume your DIL is in charge of anything child-related, social diaries, gifts etc. Your son can do all this stuff.

Overall I think lightness of touch, flexibility and being slow to take offence can work wonders. I used to socialise with my MIL without DH sometimes- we both had an interest in early music which DH didn't share- and I'm so pleased that we did. My MIL wasn't always easy but she always saw me as a full human with interests and opinions not just an appendage to my husband or producer of children. Hurrah for MILs!

Definitely what @mycatcontrolsmylife said! This is what I've seen most often tbh.

Added to that it's the mums who haven't taught their sons how to write cards / make plans / buy presents / keep in touch with family etc who seem to have the worst problems - because their son isn't self sufficient in those aspects of life, they either get a DIL who's happy to do all of that for their husband and it works out okay or they get a DIL who doesn't want to have that burden and everything falls down.

My DH was lovely but when we first met very much had been "babied" by his mum (purely because she loved him so much!) and it took time to unpick. Now he's great at all of those things and we've all got a fab relationship with the in-laws, but for the first year or so it was a bit of a struggle. I wasn't prepared to pick up all of that for him, he had no clue how to do it and it did fall down a bit. Now he's 100 times better and it's all okay, but there was a bit of pain to get there.

Bloody hell you certainly described my first Mil spot on 😂

My second and current is a lovely woman and by all accounts has always been that way so I got lucky in the end.

I can only speak as the DIL (although I only have a DS so the shoe may well be on the other foot at some point) of a MIL with 2 boys. She has been amazing from day 1 and gets on very well with both of her DIL's. She is kind but has never interfered in our lives. When DC came along she was interested and supportive but never offered advice or over stepped boundaries. When I was a neurotic new mother and she was looking after DS she accepted my (thinking back now ridiculous) lists of timings etc without a murmur. She knows that me and BIL's wife have our own families and would never suggest that one side is better than the other. She probably sounds like a wet blanket but isn't really.

In fact thinking about my first DH and my partner in between DH's all of my MIL's have had only DS's. I have been very lucky that they have all taken this approach and realised that being heavy handed is only likely to cause trouble and mean they see less of their DS (and any GC).

Oh so you got with someone you didn't like much and then changed him to suit your needs. Wow is this feminism?

You keep your fingers crossed your son marries a woman who doesn't decide that's what you are. I lucked out. My DiL is an amazing woman who chooses to love me as much as I do her, who is tolerant of my mistakes, and chooses to think well of me. From reading on here some of the things DiLs take against their MiLs for and what appears to constitute toxicity, I am grateful every day for her.

I do think too much time on MN maybe causes people to worry too much about this stuff. On here one only ever reads about toxic MIL/DIL relationships (probably because no one needs advice when things are going well) so it gives the impression that everyone is like that. IRL I know loads of people who have lovely relationships with their MIL or DIL.

Hope that your son doesn’t choose a toxic daughter in law.

I think it’s so fraught because for so many women, it’s the first time someone of such a close relation is thrust in to your life without having the history of building it up to be able to have manage it properly. So you end up seething about tiny things because you don’t have the history to just be able to talk to them.

i find that a lot of the older generation, and in particular it is women, who tend to give advice without being asked (whereas men I find just talk about themselves / interests without noticing you don’t really care). Doing that to someone who has just had a baby, feels vulnerable and isn’t actually asking for the advice makes them feel like you aren’t listening.

then finally, it feels really weird to have another woman who has a real interest in your precious baby. I found it very odd that my MIL would want her all the time, coo over her, try and kiss her etc. I realise now it’s only a good thing for DD to have so many people love her but I did find it odd and a bit threatening to start with

i only want my MIL to ever give advice when asked and I find it difficult when she gives it anyway and makes me feel like she’d do a better job. That and her endless wittering about nothing. But she’s a lovely lady and we have found our groove as time has gone on

Be accepting that your DiL is an adult and that she's with your DSs for her own reasons and doesn't need to imitate you.

My MiL was one of the nicest persons one might meet. Friendly, helpful, went out of her way to make me feel welcome from day one. In 30+ years we had a couple of issues but nothing that was a deal breaker.

When we needed a place to stay and DH suggested moving in with his parents I agreed, partly because it was intended to be for a couple of months. We moved out 7 years later, partly because MiL made it so nice for us to be there and she & FiL clearly enjoy DH company and I think mine as well. Fast forward a couple of decades and FiL died leaving MiL isolated in a first floor flat so I was happy to suggest she sell the flat, we sell our house and we all move someplace that would suit us all. Everyone said "oh don't worry she's 91 she won't be there long!" But it was 5 years, and while it was difficult I think it was the right thing to do (not because I'm an angel in any way) and that it was good for my DH to have the close time with his mom at the end of her life.

I adore my PILs.

They respect their children as autonomous adults and that trickles down to their relationships, partners, and how they raise their children. Of course they have their opinions and differing views but they mostly keep them to themselves, and certainly don't express to those it concerns.

They treat their children with total fairness and again that trickles down to grandchildren and son/daughters in law. Even splitting and giving in advance any inheritance between the children on retiring to avoid any disagreements about that.

They genuinely seem to just want to be as useful and not a burden or a nuisance as much as possible. They have names down on a list for a retirement home and it's up to the kids to decide when it's time for them to go. In the mean time they make meals and do laundry and take grandchildren to give their parents a rest (they do not do cleaning or regular childcare).

In return they are fought over. We have them for Jan/Feb and the joke is they are fully booked until the summer. Their children and their partners provide them with everything they need, and then some. We all chipped in to buy them car last year, and my DH and I are flying them to visit us this year and will take them to as many treats as they let us.

My DM was not the world's greatest Mum but she is a brilliant MIL.

She made an effort to get to know DH and like him.
She keeps out of our marriage - early on I rang her to have a whinge about something minor and she told me to go away and sort it with him, she wasn't here for that
She makes him a cake every time she sees him
When she stays at ours and he irritates her, she keeps her mouth shut and very rarely even mentions it to me
She does not expect cards, presents, phone calls or anything else from him
We don't have kids but I've seen her be an adopted granny several times - she doesn't criticise parenting, accepts times change, helps out and is good at 1 to 1 interaction with kids, not just giving them chocolate

My MIL on the other hand is pretty much the opposite of this. It took years for us to get on which was a waste of both of our time.

I'm taking notes from my MIL as I have a young DS and will be a future MIL one day. She isn't pushy or judgemental. She lives a quiet and humble life up North with her boyfriend. She keeps herself busy tending to her garden, visiting with friends and spending time with her boyfriend's family. She's not overbearing or critical and we are thankful for that.I will have to remember all this once if I become an MIL one day.

There is a quote I read somewhere which might apply for DILs and MILs. "There can be only one queen bee in the hive." 😂

From what I’ve seen with other family members’ in-laws and my own, there are so many dynamics going on at once and not everyone is on the same page.

I have two boys and now a daughter and I’m not particularly worried about becoming a MIL. From what I’ve learned one should:

Not have specific expectations or a certain image in the head of what you think your DIL or SoIL will look or be like.

Do not involve yourself unnecessarily in couples’ arguments and if asked for advice, be neutral.

Don’t badmouth or harshly criticise them especially over tiny things.

Get to know DIL and SoIL to a degree of comfort so they are open to a relationship beyond acquaintances (especially before children enter the picture).

Acknowledge and respect boundaries even more so when it comes to home and children. It’s not just your adult child’s home and children.

Come to terms that you might have made mistakes in the upbringing of your own adult child and/or you don’t know your adult child as well as you think so best not to automatically assume the fault is with DIL or SoIL.

Your adult child is not you and may not have the same type of relationship as you and their father or your current spouse.

Be able to accept that the relationship you may have envisioned between you and your in-laws may not happen and the most you can hope and have is basic courtesy and civility.

A lot of it should be common sense, but that tends to go out the window when assumptions and emotions get involved.

If you're not toxic now, you're not likely to become toxic when you're a mil.

I think it's for the exact same reason that you hear so much about awful husbands, or terrible teenagers, or difficult babies - if people are struggling, they want to talk about it. Lots of people have lovely MILs or DILs, but they've less reason to start threads about it.

FWIW my first MIL was absolutely wonderful - the nicest woman you could meet. She could so easily have struggled with me - we didn't speak the same language; our cultures were different; marrying me meant her son really wasn't going to move back to his home country, etc. etc. But she always made a huge effort and I so much appreciated that. I really miss her. She was just lovely. I hope she liked me as much (she always said she did!).

I think the thing to remember is that it's rarely about what people do; it's about the attitude behind it. I could tell you stories about my lovely ex-MIL that would spin into beautiful MN 'argh my MIL!' threads - examples of things she did or said that we could have had a huge row about. But we didn't, because even if she and I weren't always on the same page, or we had a real communication problem, it was always clear to me (and, I think, to her) that we were a united front: we both cared very much about the same person and we wanted to be good to each other. I think it had to do with how secure she felt as a parent. She knew she had been a good mum. She didn't have anything to feel competitive over.

By contrast, if I look at my mum (who can be awful to my sisters-in-law), I can see that she exorcises her parenting demons by over-compensating. She interprets any conflict as a way to show she really is an excellent mum, or she really does care more about my brothers than their wives could, or whatever. But there's a real pattern to it - if there's a potential disagreement about something where she genuinely feels on secure ground as a parent, she is just as able to smile and smooth things over as my ex-MIL would have been. So, I think being a good MIL probably starts with being a good parent.

Accept your DiL for who she is , your son loves her so this should be good enough for you. Don't interfere in their married life and only give advice when solicited. If you live nearby don't make it an excuse to keep dropping in. If you're staying for some time offer help, if it's a new baby offer to babysit whilst she catches up on some sleep, offer tea and coffee.