Page 6 | Top 500 runners at parkrun unfair on female runners?

MrsPCR · 2023-12-30T13:12:22+00:00

Every parkrun event has a list of its top 500 fastest runners; however, our local event is gradually just becoming a list of men! There are only 25 women on the list, and the number is constantly decreasing. I made it on there for one week, (about 50 women at that point) before a man kicked me off. I'd now need to run over a minute faster than my PB in less than 21m30 to get back on the list. YABU - all is fair, it's fastest 500 runners. YANBU - this is not acknowledging women's achievements or physiological differences.

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 13:33

If it's non competitive, why are results and times published
So you can check your score to see how you did and how you compare to your last week's score? To try and beat your personal best?

Neitheronethingnortheother · 31/12/2023 13:40

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 13:33

If it's non competitive, why are results and times published
So you can check your score to see how you did and how you compare to your last week's score? To try and beat your personal best?

Why does a top 500 ranking exist then? If its non competitive and only exists for you to check your own times against last week's then the data could be presented in a very very different way to a top 500 ranking!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 31/12/2023 13:46

We all obviously use parkrun in different ways. I didn't know the top 500 list was there until I saw this thread. I don't understand what the point of it is. Now I have seen it for my own parkrun, I'm gobsmacked, as I mentioned above, given that there are 490 male runners and 10 female runners on it (and yes, I do think they are all female - I know who most of them are). The one stat everybody wants is their own time and if you go regularly or even less frequently you want to know your own times from other times you participated so you can see how you're progressing (or not) over time.

It's not a competition but it's inevitable with any sport that there's a degree of competitiveness. That's why they publish the results for every parkrun in order of finishing. It's an additional incentive for some, clearly.

It all seems to get messy when they provide more than that. I can't see what the point of any of it is, given that they are now all about attracting people of all speeds.

DewHopper · 31/12/2023 13:46

Runkittyrun · 31/12/2023 13:32

If it's non competitive, why are results and times published? Why give age grading and celebrate records - based on times.
All of this distracts from the point that women are expected to prioritise men's feelings over fairness.

Indeed.

YellowMeeple · 31/12/2023 14:30

I don’t understand why so many people seem determined that parkrun must be competitive or non-competitive, when the beauty of it is that it’s both at the same time.

When I’m competing I’m not looking at how many people I am finishing ahead of, I’m interested in how many (women) are ahead of me. I’m not competing with those who are out having a run with their friends, or those who are clearly at a different point in their fitness journey, or those who are running with their kids (sometimes that’s me). I am competing with the few other women who are clearly of a similar level of fitness as me and are running hard that week. I don’t look at my results and say “I ran faster than 200 other women, well done me” I am thinking “I finished 5th lady (or whatever), I’m happy with that”. I know that some people who finished behind me will be objectively faster, but are for whatever reason running easier that week. What I do object to is not being able to trust the information that I am being given about how many of the people in the female category ahead of me are actually female. The possibility of getting a decent placing is something that gets me pushing myself in training, when I’m at 4km and it’s hurting, you bet I’m scanning around me for where the other female runners are. Why shouldn’t women be allowed that at parkrun? Men are… also not sure where these other ‘competive races’ are that we are supposed to enter, I can’t remember the last time I saw a proper 5k distance race (ignoring those that are run as a secondary event alongside a longer distance main event) the existence of parkrun has all but finished off formal 5k races.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 15:34

OhhhhhhhhBiscuits · 31/12/2023 11:05

Parkrun need to scrap all of these tables and stats and go back to what it was set up..... People to get out and run and have fun doing it. It was set up to get non runners out doing it week after week, now it's this big competition every week in all but name.

Oh dear, you really have this completely the opposite way round to reality!

In 2004 it was set up as the Bushy Park time trial.

Eventually it expanded and changed its name to parkrun.

And then the powers that be realised that they could unlock a lot of funding if they made it a health-related community event, so emphasised that people could walk it, as well as the volunteering which is great for mental wellbeing.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 15:36

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 13:12

Parkrun isn’t really meant to be a ‘race’ and they just publish times for fun. If they separate the times by sex then, realistically, they’d also have to separate them by age categories as well, and also by disability. If you want that kind of competition, do proper competitive races rather than a communal jog round a park.
Well said. It's not competitive, and if you want to compete against others maybe a proper competitive run would be more suited to you.
I personally love the fact it's inclusive to all, regardless of ability, age, sex, gender,
You walk it, jog it, run it, walk round with pushchairs, whatever. It's great, love park run. When I can be arsed to get off the sofa that is 😁

You don't love that it's "inclusive" because you don't think those who want to be competitive should be. As I said above, inclusivity is just that - including everyone. Not just those who want to stroll round in over an hour.

The beauty of parkrun is that it can be all things to all people.

Except, apparently, faster women.

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 15:41

You don't love that it's "inclusive" because you don't think those who want to be competitive should be. As I said above, inclusivity is just that - including everyone
If you can't help but compare and race against other people at a fun run, you're excluding yourself surely.
You're welcome to do it, but bit off to expect it to bend to you by telling others where they can and can't run.
If you don't like the inclusive to all stance, go find a marathon or something.

OhhhhhhhhBiscuits · 31/12/2023 15:43

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 15:34

Oh dear, you really have this completely the opposite way round to reality!

In 2004 it was set up as the Bushy Park time trial.

Eventually it expanded and changed its name to parkrun.

And then the powers that be realised that they could unlock a lot of funding if they made it a health-related community event, so emphasised that people could walk it, as well as the volunteering which is great for mental wellbeing.

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When our local one was set up it was sold as a non competitive, fun way to keep fit for free. I can still remember seeing the posters for it locally. They didn't even release times etc..... for a good year or so after it started. So I can only go on what was set up locally when it first started here.

DewHopper · 31/12/2023 15:45

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 15:41

You don't love that it's "inclusive" because you don't think those who want to be competitive should be. As I said above, inclusivity is just that - including everyone
If you can't help but compare and race against other people at a fun run, you're excluding yourself surely.
You're welcome to do it, but bit off to expect it to bend to you by telling others where they can and can't run.
If you don't like the inclusive to all stance, go find a marathon or something.

As you have been repeatedly told by other posters. It is not a 'fun run' for everyone - for you maybe but you are not everyone.

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 15:48

And as you've repeatedly been told, it's inclusive of everyone, regardless of ability, sex, gender etc.
If you don't like that, that's not their problem is it - sounds like finding yourself a competitive race would suit you better.

DewHopper · 31/12/2023 15:48

I am sure that posters here are delighted that it is inclusive and that trans people are taking part but it is unacceptable for transwomen to be claiming women's times when they are males. It's called fairness.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 15:54

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 15:41

You don't love that it's "inclusive" because you don't think those who want to be competitive should be. As I said above, inclusivity is just that - including everyone
If you can't help but compare and race against other people at a fun run, you're excluding yourself surely.
You're welcome to do it, but bit off to expect it to bend to you by telling others where they can and can't run.
If you don't like the inclusive to all stance, go find a marathon or something.

Nobody is excluding anybody.

They are merely saying that they should run/walk in their own category. It's really not hard.

I can't identify into the wrong age group, so I shouldn't be able to identify into the wrong "gender" either.

When our local one was set up it was sold as a non competitive, fun way to keep fit for free. I can still remember seeing the posters for it locally. They didn't even release times etc..... for a good year or so after it started. So I can only go on what was set up locally when it first started here

parkrun has always been a timed event.

The only exception, kind of, is France, where the results were listed alphabetically rather than in order due to laws in France about needing medical certificates for races - something which has currently led to parkrun being suspended in France as it seems that this workaround may not be legally robust.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 31/12/2023 16:07

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 13:19

Not sure what part you missed but it's a non competitive race. If you want to compete, there's more suitable races for you, surely.
I love the fact anyone can run.
If you're adamant on comparing yourself to others instead of just trying to better your personal best/getting yourself fitter then that's a you thing and you're excluding yourself, surely.

Why keep on doing this?

Parkrun post rankings... it was started as a competitive run... It ranks by age and sex... It allows anyone to be either sex.

If they simply posted times in alphabetical order there would be no issue. But they don't.

They set up participation that guarantees that women cannot get the same experience as.men do... Because some men remove that by saying they are women and changing those rankings.

There are solutions available... They just choose to ignore protests from women because, well, they want to and they can!

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 16:08

They are merely saying that they should run/walk in their own category. It's really not hard
You don't run in categories though, you all run together. The only time you see how others have done is if you look up their scores online when you get home.
Starting to think they should just publish the names of those who have run and nothing else, would surely sort out the "not fair" complaints but have a feeling people would still find something to complain about.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 31/12/2023 16:10

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 16:08

They are merely saying that they should run/walk in their own category. It's really not hard
You don't run in categories though, you all run together. The only time you see how others have done is if you look up their scores online when you get home.
Starting to think they should just publish the names of those who have run and nothing else, would surely sort out the "not fair" complaints but have a feeling people would still find something to complain about.

So now you are suggesting what has been said many times by many people over the last couple of years.

And you do run in categories. You are designated by sex (though they don't really mean it) and by age. That's what happens with your bar code. You get categorised..

Seashor · 31/12/2023 16:16

I used to love doing Parkrun before all this competitiveness took hold. My local ones are just training runs for half and full marathon runners. The real meaning of them has been lost. Just run on my own again.

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 16:20

So now you are suggesting what has been said many times by many people over the last couple of years

Didn't know that's "been suggested for a couple of years"
Agree maybe it's a better idea that way.

And you do run in categories. You are designated by sex (though they don't really mean it) and by age. That's what happens with your bar code. You get categorised.
So stop worrying about where others are and what they're doing and noseying at their scores and (metaphorically) beating yourself up if they're faster than you and concentrate on yourself, compete against yourself, It's a much more relaxed state to be in than constantly comparing yourself to others.
There's actual competitive races for that. Park Run isn't. However much you wish it was.

Neitheronethingnortheother · 31/12/2023 16:26

NoMoreFalafelsForYou · 31/12/2023 15:48

And as you've repeatedly been told, it's inclusive of everyone, regardless of ability, sex, gender etc.
If you don't like that, that's not their problem is it - sounds like finding yourself a competitive race would suit you better.

You cannot be both inclusive of sex and gender, especially in sport

The moment you are inclusive of gender e.g. allowing people born male to identify into the female category then you are not inclusive of sex, as sex based physical advantages do not disappear the moment someone puts on some lipstick and a pink top

Wooloohooloo · 31/12/2023 16:29

Parkrun is just a free event. You can't expect too much. Paid for runs do separate by sex.

Wrapunzel · 31/12/2023 16:35

Great post @YellowMeeple
That's how I feel when on form too!
It's different things to different people, DH won't even run if he's not on form to win (16 mins something at our local one will usually clinch it), cheeky sod even lapped me once when we had childcare so we could both run it.
The cognitive dissonance is astonishing

londonmummy1966 · 31/12/2023 16:36

I just checked my local parkrun stats - there are 109 sub 20 women (which is amazing as there is a big hill that is run twice). 4 of them make the top 500. The top 50 age graded are 25 men and 25 women.

PPTorPDF · 31/12/2023 17:24

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 15:36

You don't love that it's "inclusive" because you don't think those who want to be competitive should be. As I said above, inclusivity is just that - including everyone. Not just those who want to stroll round in over an hour.

The beauty of parkrun is that it can be all things to all people.

Except, apparently, faster women.

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Yessss this!

enchantedsquirrelwood · 31/12/2023 17:51

Seashor · 31/12/2023 16:16

I used to love doing Parkrun before all this competitiveness took hold. My local ones are just training runs for half and full marathon runners. The real meaning of them has been lost. Just run on my own again.

AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH.

parkrun has ALWAYS been competitive, it's the community element that is new(ish)!!!

Please go and read something about the history of parkrun.

Anyway - women have the same rights to be competitive as men.

Results should be sex-based, not based on some weird notion of gender, based on stereotyping. And whether it's a paid for event is irrelevant.

And the top 500 should be top 250 men and top 250 women.

However, as I've said here and on other threads, it's a global organisation, so the gender issue needs a global solution, not just a UK one.

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 31/12/2023 18:34

Neitheronethingnortheother · 31/12/2023 11:09

He's just a very sad anti social man who apparently lacks critical thinking skills or the ability to put forward thoughtful, insightful posts

But hey, at least he can run fast 🙄

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Who is ?

There is nothing to think critically about here, nor is there any insight to gain.

Of the finishers, regardless of category there will be a top 500. If you look at those in the top 500, the majority will be male because men on average run faster.

It’s just data. You can choose not to look at it, or you can look at permuted data which uses aggregation to filter the data by various categories.

If it upsets you to look at it, don’t look at it.

If you don’t care about your time and just run for you, don’t look at it.

If you do care about your time and want to compare with your peers then use the appropriate aggregation.

I genuinely fail to understand how anyone has a grievance here. It’s like “C” grade students being pissy because some people get “A” grades.