....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

[doorkeeper]

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

@annabelnw9

The big issue in my view is the abject failure of many private schools (that enjoy all the benefits of having charitable status), to actually engage in any meaningful charitable activity/ public good/ offer their facilities/expertise to less privileged children living nearby who could massively benefit from them. That is what needs to have a light shone on it and private schools named and shamed where they fail to live up to their charitable status (and its consequent financial benefits)

Totally agree. Where I live, schools which were set up to provide education for poor children have become ££ private schools with a handful of bursaries. I assume this is because there weren't sufficient funds in the original bequest, but it does not sit happily with me at all

A colleague of mine went to a PTA quiz night there. He joined in at a random table as he was alone. The table comprised of a politician, a surgeon, a judge and two financiers.

Whatever is going on, TLO isn't a standard state funded school. I think they receive a lot of funding from their alumni. The alumni also provide links to prestigious work experience opportunities, support with university application, and come in a do talks etc.

The non faith secondary school near me with some places allocated by streaming has parents that fit that bill & some notable alumni. The catchment is tiny & house prices are £££

@Trickleg no problem, I didn’t even know it any feeders!

had any

And yet while in Hammersmith and Fulham as a whole, 29% of pupils are eligible for free school meals (higher than the national average of 27.1%), at the Oratory it's 11.6%.

It’s not! Some only require a baptism certificate as part of their oversubscription criteria. Used to o be the case in Liverpool - don’t know if it still is.

If course it also depends on a school being oversubscribed in the first place.

@CecilyP Im not sure what you are confused by? I said it’s true for catholic schools that they would require you to be a catholic which you seem to agree with… And I said most require attendance which doesn’t mean every catholic school requires attendance… And obviously in London the vast majority of the highest performing state schools are oversubscribed.

I don't think I've seen any place where state funded schools were the norm, where you don't get a kind of differentiation within the system.

Essentially, whatever the system is to select students, even if it's just distance from the school, parents who value good education will find ways to get their kids into programs that offer a little more. Often more well off parents, so certain problems of poverty are less prominent, but also very commonly motivated first generation immigrants.

I saw a really amazing example of this a number of years ago when I was working in a literacy program in a school that was considered poor, in a very poor area. Most parents with any ability to do so that lived nearby arranged for their kids to be in specialized programs in state schools, or went private. The majority of kids in my school had parents who were overwhelmed or social drop-outs. They tended not to be involved in the school.

Then there was a large group that came from the Middle East all of a sudden, who were not well off, and their kids came to our school. These parents were totally different, very education focused. We'd hold a literacy event and these parents would be the vast majority there with their kids, participating in the activities, even though many, especially the mums, had little English.

Within about 15 years though this group was largely absent from the school. The parents were in a better position, and their kids were in the same specialized state programs that other middle class kids were, or many attended the Muslim school, which offered significant help to many of these families with fees.

People who value education will try and get it for their kids.

Mr Monkey went to a fairly high performing religiously selective state school in London.

His parents fit the working class, first generation immigrant profile talked about here.

His parents chose it as it was (is) a Jesuit school and they wanted their children educated in their Catholic faith

From his tales of his school years, there were definite plusses and minuses to attending a very religious school (I went to an academically selective state school and those are also a mixed bag).

I thought they actually said "prestigious West London school". I didn't hear them say private.

It has a feeder primary in Chelsea which, apart from its OTT uniform, is a normal state school. Also it’s own music based primary which does seem to replicate private choir schools.

Having the time to attend a church service most weeks is hardly a massive hurdle. It in no way makes a state school essentially a private school through gatekeeping. Most people can find an hour a week. Very few can find hundreds of thousand of pounds.

I don't personally agree with faith schools, but that's a different conversation.

The fact is kids from all different financial backgrounds go to these schools.

I find the interest that some have in a single school very strange.
So what if they get donations from alumni, assuming that PP's assumptions are correct? Surely the issue is then that they have more money and are therefore able to make their school so desirable/ appealing that some parents actually choose to send their children there. I think that just shows that if education were properly funded, every state school would be that desirable.
Reading between the lines it seems like people assume that state schools ought to be so dreadful that no one would actually choose that option if there was an alternative.
Having worked in a primary near the oratory with over 50% of children were PP, I can say that the challenges that these children faced were in no way caused by the Oratory's admissions procedure. We always had a high ratio of places at the Oratory out of those who applied, I like to think they were able to support those children well.
If a school is offering something that lots of people want, or that is effective, then work out what it is and replicate it rather than knocking it.

No they really don’t. It has 11.6% of children who are eligible for free school meals or have been in the last 6 years. The National average is 27.1%

it has 7.1% of pupils with SEND needs. The national average is 12.2%

It is not an inclusive nor socio-economically diverse school.

@Grimpo they take girls in the sixth form. I was picking up on a PP’s point. I have no idea where the Blairs’ daughter went to school.

@bloatedbobby what do you mean? They applied, she got in. Politicians’ children have the right to an education just like everyone else.

@Spirallingdownwards I'm fairly certain I heard the same as you (I have no vested interest in this).

It's not a "free private school" though. It's a selective state school. I didn't think there was a rule against that?

I’m interested as, for a time, it was my nearest secondary. It also was in the news 9 years ago as highlighted by a PP.

There was long and drawn out battle with OSA back in 2014/2015. The Oratory (LOS) won some aspects and lost others (they did need to change their policy but not as significantly as OSA had suggested prior to the appeal).

This was also around the when GCSE league tables showed results in proportion to pupils level on intake and it was quite noticeable that LOS’s admissions policy had screened out all lower ability pupils.

I totally disagree that more funding would make every state school desirable. People would quickly take for granted anything extra funding would bring and make exactly the same choices they do now.

Most politicians send their kids to these sort of schools ..... Gove sent his DD to Greycoat.

@Runnynoses I didn't realise they were in "catchment", that's all

@Lifeinlists you’re wrong. Cameron’s daughter did go to a state school.

Yes. Actually attending church is a core requirement of the Catholic faith. If you don't do it you're not a practising Catholic.

Funny how in my Northern Catholic school half the kids never went to mass and getting in was pretty easy. It's almost like the selectiveness of these London schools comes from other factors - the same factors that make many desirable schools oversubscribed.

@bloatedbobby they lived practically next door!

Most politicians send their kids to these sort of schools ..... Gove sent his DD to Greycoat.

Would it be better for them to chose private?

@Runnynoses I didn't realise that, think I confused the location. Are you satisfied now or do you need further explanations?