....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

[doorkeeper]

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

It is not an inclusive nor socio-economically diverse school.

I would think faith secondaries are more socio economically diverse than the state grammars due to tutoring cost & time demands or the best state comps that have distance requirements due to house prices?

@bloatedbobby totes fine 😀

I teach at a Catholic School and it is much more ethnically and economically diverse than the grammars and secondary moderns surrounding it. White middle class Brits don't tend to be very religious these days.

I think that the Oratory and especially Cardinal Vaughan are very, very Catholic

I'm talking about his younger daughter, Florence. It's been widely reported that she's at a London independent though not which one. Her older brother is at St Paul's.

Her older sister was at Grey Coat Hospital when DC was PM.

With their money it would be a bit odd to have a foot in both camps now.

Agreed. Grammar school are also worse. Not sure what that has to do with the OP though? The OP is about certain London school manipulating the admissions process to e sure a more affluent in take.

Not only does the Oratory School free school meal and SEN data suggest this is true but the School Adjudicator determined they had done exactly that ……”The Adjudicator had found that the school’s admission arrangements were unlawful for a number of reasons, including most seriously because the school had failed to have regard to guidance on religious oversubscription criteria given by the Catholic Diocese of Westminster, and had unlawfully discriminated against less well-off Catholic families.”

That was a while ago now but it would appear from the stats that for whatever reason, their intake is not average

Well all those who disagree with hard working teachers and school mgmt staff really doing their best to provide a good education with poor state funding will be happy that so much of what the school has worked for over the last decades will have gone up in flames. Luckily for you the families who supported their boys (and girls in 6th form) to work hard and comply with the strict discipline rules at The Oratory will now be in limbo until they find out what number of pupils the school can accommodate.

of course life is not always fair, I have seen both horrendous and good state schools (same for private actually) - it’s really not fair that some children don’t get the same opportunities as others but surely the issue is addressing the not so good schools rather than trying to tear down the good ones. I might be wrong but some of this comes from parental support.

It’s not accidental honestly, it’s just an error.

As for your broader point.. getting shot of these schools wouldn’t sort the system out.

Ah yes I stand corrected @Lifeinlists.

Thanks to @mantyzer for posting 4.4% FSM. Where did you get that figure from (I'd just like to verify that it's FSM and not PP, in case they're massaging the figures by adding in service personnel). I'd be interested in their BME and EAL figures too.

From what I'm reading so far, it appears that there is a consortium of West London Catholic schools, getting fantastic results. Despite dwindling Catholic church attendance, there appears to be a rearguard of staunch (and very rich) Catholics, who just happen to take their children to church each week and manage to get into one of these schools. They save a fortune by not having to use private education.

Why are there <5% of the local FSM population attending TLO?

Anyone here who is in W London and belongs to a church-going community, Catholic primary. It's YOUR fault. You tell your friends, neighbours, pupils about this world-class education. You make them apply en masse. There should be entire year groups putting TLO as first choice. They initially built the bloody place for you, so get your asses there.

We've done it with Oxbridge, so now do it with their fancy schools. Just apply.

Eat the rich.

I agree about this. The grammar schools are almost exclusively Asian and the comprehensives are almost exclusively white and black. There are exceptions but if you drive past them at school chuck out time those are the demographics that you will mainly see.

Faith secondaries are not all the same. Some are undersubscribed and take anyone; some take just about every Catholic in the area so are less stratified by class than other secondaries, others are like LOS selection by church attendance, so selects the parents rather than children as a grammar school would.

Plenty of data here (which is where the figure of 11.6% FSM used several times on this thread is from.) Not sure where the 4.4% came from.

Other interesting data - half the pupils had high prior attainment (end of KS2 results) and only a tiny number of low prior attainment (8 kids out of 180).

High % of EAL - around 37% - but I think the London average is higher than that (Statista says 44% but I think it might be slightly overclocked.)

They do seem to be able to afford quite a few more staff than the norm - 13.3 pupils per teacher - 17-20 seems to be much more the norm in my relatively affluent London borough...

@CecilyP I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, of course not every faith school is oversubscribed but in the case of the best London secondary ones which is what is being discussed they majority are. And I don't know any of the oversubscribed ones in London that do not require some form of attendance. As I said I went to one of them and I lived in another borough & a family friend from same church went to the Oratory. I was not rich then & am not rich now & my dc will likely attend a catholic secondary. For me my faith is very much part of my culture which is true for many parents who chose a faith school. I didn't actually know anyone who wasn't a 2nd gen immigrant until I got to uni as I was born in a then very immigrant heavy part of London.

@x2boys my kids go to that school. The ‘catchment area’ if there was one would be one of the most deprived areas of the town. Many of the local churches have bent over backwards to attract local families to services and help gain admission but sadly most don’t bother. That’s the thing. Making the effort to attend a messy play service on a Wednesday afternoon or a family service at 11:30 on Sunday morning is beyond them. No they just moan that the school isn’t for the likes of them.
Fwiw bullying isn’t a huge problem and if you read the report it wasn’t about poor staff response. I would say if you look at the borough as a whole educational attainment is once again pretty poor after a brief period of improvement. I’d still send my kids to CS over any of the other schools and I say that as a parent of both a very academic high achieving child and one with learning needs who still did well.

Its a funny area is as you have e contrast of the sprawling estate next to the rather more affluent area
I live at he other side of town in a deprived area I also sent m son to A religious school ,,his other options would have been Essa or Harper Green which were not great choices .

By virtue of the type of school it is it will attract a different type of family with highly motivated parents. See also Fulham Boys which does remarkably well thanks in part to a very active parent body as well as exceptional teaching.

Very normal for faith schools.

.

There is an entirely optional system for parents and alumni to make donations, and that is something the school are very transparent about. Most of these voluntary donations come from parents.

University applications are supported by the very knowledgeable and experienced teachers who form the sixth form leadership team, not alumni.

Unlike lots of state schools, the Oratory doesn’t actually offer work experience to their pupils. So alumni do not source placements for pupils at the school.

Like most schools, parents and alumni who may have interesting jobs or expertise will very occasionally go in to do talks.

I wouldn’t exactly say that’s unreasonable.

There seems to be lots of very salty and ignorant individuals on this thread who clearly lack any perspective or understanding of what life at the Oratory is like.

Pedalling falsehoods and mistruths based on assumptions doesn’t take away from the fact that a place of education for over a thousand children from 7-18 years old has been significantly damaged. The semantics of how the school is portrayed shouldn’t really have anything to do with this story.

The school is a high-achieving and objectively prestigious state school with a proud Catholic ethos. Its admissions policy is clear, and takes pupils from a vast array of different backgrounds. It has high standards, and produces excellent results. Its pupils come out as rounded individuals. I struggle to understand how people can complain about this and assert that it is a bad thing? If all of those things were happening at a secular, non-Catholic school, I feel the responses would be significantly different.

Rather than blaming individual schools for setting their pupils up to be successful, maybe the root cause of educational inequality should be blamed instead - the significant funding problems that schools are facing.

If the option is there for an excellent quality of education for your child, who would blame you for taking it?

Is "highly motivated" code for "not poor"?

I posted the figures in response to a suggestion that the Oratory was representative of its community and many have parents in low-paid jobs. The intake for the Oratory is much richer than the norm and have much, much higher prior attainment.

I wouldn't disagree (as many on this thread have) that this is in large part down to highly engaged and motivated parents who see the Oratory, like similar schools with a very skewed profile, as a viable alternative to private education and resource it appropriately.

In looking at the admission arrangements for the Oratory and its feeder primary (which prioritises Catholic children by the parish they live in), I was startled and then laughed to see they're currently consulting to expand their admissions to prioritise not just the siblings of former students but the children of former students.

The intake for the Oratory is much richer than the norm and have much, much higher prior attainment.

Wouldn't that be in part to the fact many Catholic primaries are very good?

In West London you might be surprised at the number of white middle-class Brits who suddenly discover their Catholic religious roots when expecting their first child. Because they have done their homework about the schools admissions work, and have a gameplan to give themselves as many good options as possible. It's a really common West London phenomenon.