....to be unsurprised the BBC called the London Oratory a "prestigious private school" when it isn't?

[doorkeeper]

The London Oratory school is in the news because there's been a minor blaze there (nobody hurt) and a pupil has been taken in for questioning.

I was idly listening to PM on Radio 4, and they described the school as a "prestigious private school". Except it isn't, of course. It's a state-funded school. Except, again, it's functionally a free private school for posh and/or famous people that most ordinary mortals couldn't hope to get their kids into. I found this burst of accidental honesty from the BBC quite refreshing.

I'm sick of the posh London schools that are state-funded but that are effectively free private schools because of the way they massage their admissions. The now-disgraced former head of Holland Park School was taking HPS firmly in that direction, I know that a few other West London schools operate in the same way. I would love to see Ofsted - who were useless re the HPS scandal until it was too late - address this in some way. All children, even the ones whose parents aren't rich or famous, should have equal access to local schools, regardless of income, religion or parental connections.

AIBU to enjoy this bit of accidental honesty from the BBC?

I worked in a Catholic primary school in West London. Bog standard, albeit in a nice area. Loads of the kids went on to Scared Heart, Oratory, Cardinal Vaughn, Cardinal Wiseman etc. Just kids from completely normal backgrounds.

London is full of people from all different backgrounds, in all different circumstances squashed together in a small space, these schools reflect that. The PM's kids and your cleaners kids at the same school. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

You mean what was then a mixed sixth form…

But you've named Greycoats and Cardinal Vaughn, which are also in the "effectively free private school" category. You've made my point for me, not contradicted it.

I don't think you realise what ordinary state schools are like.

I reckon this is the first time I’ve ever heard Fulham referred to as “not particularly salubrious”.

I've never heard of state funded private schools. How do they justify taking in only certain people like celebs/rich people's kids?

The "cleaner's kids" would only get in if they were not only Catholic, but also had the family leisure time available to go to church (ie didnt have to work weekends), and could prove it (not always easy if you've moved here from elsewhere). The criteria used to say clearly on some West London Catholic schools that you'd have to have baptised your kids by the age of 6 months, which immediately ruled out a lot of Eastern European Catholic kids, but that seems to have now gone from the written admissions policies.

It happens up north too.
Skipton in North Yorkshire has a girls and boys state funded schools that are as good as any private school. Still selective, so rich parents can get their sprogs in no problem. All good in Skipton for afluent families, you'll be pleased to know.

This is a really interesting point. As someone who benefitted from an educational institution that had charitable status, I'm not sure what charitable functions it every carried out. Is there some accountability for having the status? There were significant advantages to the institution, that's not in doubt.

@annabelnw9 What rubbish! Only 4.4% of pupils there are on fsm. The regional average at schools is 18.2%. So 59 of its pupils are from poorer backgrounds. And I would be very surprised if although poor, they did not have connections, making their cultural capital high.

In London there are Masses at the weekend at a large number of times and locations and as Saturday Evening is considered the start of the Sunday liturgy, Saturday evening Mass is also an option. A devout Catholic in London can get to Mass at some time, even in their lunch hour. I have Catholic friends in all walks of life, the majority working-class and noone says they regularly have problems getting to Mass on Sunday. The requirements for any practicing Catholics are standard and any Catholic family regularly meeting their Sunday obligation would have no problem. Most would consider it the bare minimum.

The "cleaner's kids" would only get in if they were not only Catholic, but also had the family leisure time available to go to church (ie didnt have to work weekends), and could prove it (not always easy if you've moved here from elsewhere)

But that’s true of any catholic school & most require attendance not necessarily only weekend attendance. If you’ve only just moved you can have a supplementary form from that parish/priest.

So why is the number of pupils on fsm so low if it is equally open to everyone?
Hint - it is not.

I’m a 2nd gen immigrant & the vast vast majority of my school friends were 2nd gen immigrants at catholic schools. My dcs outstanding state non faith primary is far less diverse because it has a tiny catchment (500 meters) & prohibitively high house prices.

So why is the number of pupils on fsm so low if it is equally open to everyone?

Thats true of most of the “best” state secondaries though isn’t it? And tbh you can be disadvantaged & still not qualify for fsm, the bar is very low . The stats for EAL are usually pretty high at catholic schools vs non faith.

• “Universal Credit - if you apply on or after 1 April 2018 your household income must be less than £7,400 a year (after tax and not including any benefits you get)“

That is incredibly low, as I said you can be disadvantaged but not qualify for fsm. Many London boroughs have universal fsm at primary already.

Indeed. I was scrolling down hoping someone had made exactly this point.

It is the closest state school to Downing Street that admits girls.

Happy accident, I think.

I'm not sure what charitable functions it every carried out

What counts as a charitable activity is set out in law. The provision of education is a charitable aim.

The Charities Commission does check up that charities are fulfilling their charitable aims, so if you are concerned that a body registered as a charity is not doing so, you can report them. Plus they have to submit annual reports with their accounts showing what they do.

Despite best efforts of the Blair government to force independent schools to replace the Assisted Places Scheme at their expense (and early New Labour policy change was to end that scheme), that never happened. It all went to tribunal, and although various actions (such as the provision of bursaries) was desirable, it was held to be neither necessary nor sufficient for charitable status

Having worked in Hammersmith and Fulham borough as a child protection social worker (including the Fulham area) I can assure you there are very significant social problems across the area including endemic drug use /dealing, alcohol abuse issues , child abuse and child neglect, mental health, homelessness as well as unemployment . There are large pockets of social housing across the borough and deprivation - hidden behind /away from the shiny shopping centres and nice parks.

It’s a moot point anyway as entry to the London Oratory is NOT based on distance.

For clarity - the London Oratory admits by lottery. There is no catchment. If the child is a baptised and practicing Catholic they go into the lottery and about a half/third of the children get a place. Priority IS given to siblings and the children of those who went to the school. But mostly it’s the lottery regardless of income, location or aptitude.

There is an awful lot of incorrect information on this thread. The Oratory gets amazing results because it attracts motivated parents and is very, very, very strict. Not my cup of tea but many love it. It is not a private school in any shape or form, and the families I know with children there are from every socio-economic background.

Why can’t ‘mere mortals’ send their sons there? I know plenty of ordinary people whose sons go there.

Greycoats admits a percentage of girls who show an ability for languages. Hundreds of girls apply for 15 places and sit an aptitude test.

Notable that Cameron’s son didn’t go to state school for all the noise he made about it when his daughter started secondary. I suppose posh people just can’t bear for their sons to miss out on the good old divisive traditions of Eton or wherever.

No they don’t have fixed catchments at all. London is not an education authority anyway; each of the 32 London boroughs are, and some of them have selective schools. However, Catholic schools, wherever they are, tend to exist outside normal catchment.

This doesn't really map out the same in West London, where the London Oratory is. For whatever reason, the options if you are a (particular kind of) Catholic are much more plentiful and of a higher standard, than if you are not. In recent years, two new secondary schools have been built to try and mop up all the other kids who don't have a hope of getting into those schools. (Unfortunately even one of those has delusions of grandure, and has been trying to make poorer families self-select out of choosing it by making the uniform and parental contributions really expensive.)