To think this isn’t normal 3 yo behaviour?

[Threestepsbackwwards]

Consistent with shoving other kids out of the way, trying to kick for no reason, etc.

It’s been going on since about 16 months for context.

So from a post that was very helpful this

the fire and ramp them up rather than down. It can often take a long time to calm them down, and by the time they have calmed down they have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you try to discuss it with them. They either shut down and refuse to give an answer, give a silly answer, or literally don't seem to remember/understand is probably the most helpful.

We had another incident tonight which I’m upset about. Poured cold water on the baby’s face. Baby obviously hysterical and no sort of warning or provocation.

I am alone in this and it’s so isolating. Nursery, HV and GP just aren’t going to be any help. I did flag my concerns re aggression at the two year check and it didn’t even get acknowledged. The HV will likely just give me the standard sort of advice that does not work. The GP will ask what nursery think and when I say nursery think all is fine then that ends there.

I have been lying awake thinking about it. I just wish I hadn’t had him. I know that’s just awful but it’s the honest truth, as unfortunately I see where he’s going and where we’re all going.

I have a child with complex special needs who was very violent as a child to me, not other kids. We still struggle sometimes.

There are many different parenting strategies that experts can suggest but at his age you stay consistent, remove him immediately no second chances, and at home he can have a 3 minute time out in his room.

Do not try and lable his emotional state as evil or cruel. He's still a baby. He's learning.

You need to stay calm when these things happen and just swiftly consequences. Be matter of fact.

Afterwards you discuss what happened.

Discussing this with parenting experts or reading books is a good thing. Also, 123 magic was a great book.

He isn’t a baby. He hasn’t been a baby for some time now.

Any sort of removal from the situation makes him more angry and it takes a long time to settle him then.

I don’t want to label him as evil, that was a post I shouldn’t have made. However, he does have a personality, as everyone does, some children are shy and timid, some are exuberant and outgoing. Mine … he has his good points but fundamentally he is aggressive and cruel.

If I only had him, no other children, I think I would probably end my life. I have been thinking about this tonight. I couldn’t bring myself to harm a child much less my own. But the years ahead won’t bring much joy. It’s just all going to be a fight, trying to prevent him harming himself and others. But since I have another child in need of protection I can’t do that. What a mess

I'm going to suggest therapy for yourself most importantly.

Nothing you have said seems all that horrible for a just turned 3 yo. He has been on this planet for 3 years and is still learning.

Your reaction to him is extreme and I wonder if it's more about your childhood than him. Lots of kids hit and act out at that age.

Why are you deciding he's a bad person who is out to hurt people? He is still very much a baby..

And, I think I shall probably delete my MN account as I think I come here desperate for answers but there are no answers.

I do think I’ve made many mistakes and there are quite a few things I wish I could do again. I will try to make an appointment with the GP to try to rule out any physical health conditions that may be either the cause of some of the aggressive behaviour towards others or may be exacerbating it. But other than that it’s really just hoping he grows out of it or - and this is awful - that one day he’ll pick on the wrong kid.

He isn’t learning though, is he? That’s the point.

For nearly two years now he has been told no, we use kind hands and feet. Teeth are not for biting. If you cannot use kind hands we shall have to leave.

He has learned precisely nothing in that time (apparently.)

So he’s three now. Let’s say in another two years we’re still here and he’s five. Is he still just a baby then?

How about at seven, nine, eleven?

I will genuinely try to do my best. It isn’t helpful for me to post here or to talk about it any more.

Find your local Family Hub and see what parenting courses they’re running. The incredible years programme would be good for you, even if only to explore what typical development is like, and to see if you think ds’s behaviour is different.

From my experience of hundreds of small children, I think you’ll see a huge difference once he starts school.

Look I don't know about the rest of it but this sounds like very normal 3yo behaviour. Framing it as aggressive or cruel is going to be very unhelpful. Is your upbringing skewing your responses here?

It sounds like he needs very close supervision whenever around other children, and blocking whenever the physicality comes up. Ie before it happens. He needs close spotting. Recruit your husband (or others) to help where possible. If other children are close by, expect that it is going to happen. Don't stand by passively until it's too late. Don't punish, prevent. If you miss something, and it happens, remain calm, and end the situation where appropriate (eg leave park). Tell him why. Start again.

Exhausting? yes - necessary, yes.

Where something is repeated like this, children need actively preventing not telling. They are impulsive. I suspect this, and possibly your own reactions to his behaviour, are the adjustments that need to be made to parenting.

I’m worried for your son.

His behaviour as you’ve described is still completely within the realms of normal for his age, not all children develop at the same pace and there are always outliers. There may or may not be a developmental issue, you should be talking to your HV about this…but you’ve worryingly said you don’t want to.

Your posts are strange, bordering on mentally unhinged. Your mental state is going to affect your children, you need to go see a GP and repeat some of the things you’ve written here (about killing yourself if you had just had him, that you’ve predicted his future already and decided he will be a bad person, that you believe a toddler is evil)

Three years old is still so young, he may seem more grown up if he is your oldest but you will look back and see how small he truly was at this age.

Before you ruin yours and your childrens lives you NEED to get outside help.

OP. You are not a bad mother. Your child isn’t a bad kid. Talk to your partner, talk to a gp. Talk to a therapist. You need help, love and support. Wishing you the best

OP. You are not a bad mother. Your child isn’t a bad kid. Talk to your partner, talk to a gp. Talk to a therapist. You need help, love and support. Wishing you the best

Just a few things that may or may not be helpful.

• SEND covers several different areas. One of those areas is Social Emotional and Mental Health (SEMH) there is always a reason for 'difficult behaviour' and nursery could (should?) be monitoring this with you in case there are SEMH issues that need addressing (they will have evidence that can be passed on to school for example so that he isn't starting from square one when he starts school). Telling you it's not a SEND issue as if SEND only covers physical or 'academic' development is not helpful to anyone including you but mostly your child. *all difficult behaviour is for a reason, the reason may not present itself until he is much older or ever but it's always for a reason. It's never because the child is spiteful or mean. There will be a reason that he is behaving in this way- it might be as simple as getting a reaction or it might be more complex and due to development, neurodiversity or trauma. It might not even be his trauma, it might be trauma that you or his Dad have suffered that has effected your own parenting/view of childhood (I am absolutely not parent blaming here, but your own issues -it you have any- will absolutely effect your child). The fact that all behaviour has a reason will not make it any easier for you to deal with but may give you a different lense through which to view the behaviour. catch him being good every tiny thing that he does in areas he finds tricky that is positive (eg saying hello to the baby, not reacting when another child enters the playground etc), make a massive fuss of your child. Be hyper vigilant for tiny good things that he does in relation to other children. Even if these things are totally normal things and use language of praise with him. 'Wow, well done DS, it was really kind of you to pick the baby's hat up because he'd have a cold head without it, you're a super big brother. I'm so pleased to have you to help me.' Etc go over the top but reframe your view of him and go mad on praise. *make sure he knows the rules everytime. When you arrive at the playground, stop at the gate and go through the rules in a positive way 'right DS, today I'm going to be looking for you letting other children play on the climbing frame while you're on it and being able to play your game when another child is near you, if you can't do that, I'm afraid I'll have to take you out of the playground for five minutes but if you can do that, you can have a sticker/high five/treat. When in the playground, go mad praising him, even if the other child is miles from him. If he does kick somebody etc take him out, explain what he's done wrong then give him another chance. You'll need to be totally on him and playing with him etc for this, talking him through eg. 'Oh look, there's a little girl who's come to join us, we need to be really kind and let her on the climbing frame too. Why don't you ask her name?' Etc. You may need to only go to the playground when you can leave the little one with somebody else and give DS your full attention for a while or when somebody else can watch the little one. *he is only little and is still learning, he'll still be learning when he's 5,6,7 etc. don't think 'what if he's still doing this when he's 6, concentrate on helping him now and for now.

Not sure if any of that is helpful, it just sometimes makes things better to reframe how we think about our kids and see them in a different light.

@Threestepsbackwwards i'm re-posting my post as it always seems from what you are writing that you are alone in this ...you are not, your husband is fully part of this too! with your last few updates i really think you are replaying aspects of your own childhood so please get your OH involved and some extra support for yourself.

From my point of view I’m picking ds up and being told he’s been unkind, he’s done this, he’s done that. Eventually, I sent a very nice email (I will actually anonymise it and post it on here if you want me to) expressing concern that the situation was unpleasant for everyone - other children, DS and staff, and where did we go from here

There is a lot of removing him from situations and telling offs but no giving him words or showing other behaviours. Telling him to say excuse me or don’t come too close when someone is getting close on s climbing frame.

I know you are saying to be kind with hands and feet but what does that even mean to a 3 year old

If it means don’t kick then say don’t kick
Say exactly what you want to see or don’t want to see

Has he any friends at nursery

They weren’t too close. They were a kid climbing a climbing frame in a completely ordinary and appropriate way. He wasn’t overcrowded or distressed.

I do obviously follow him round and physically prevent him attacking. But it isn’t always possible especially in play areas designed for kids.

DH and I just don’t talk about it.

"DH and I just don’t talk about it." .....why not OP ,its his child too ?

It isn't normal but it isn't as unusual as perhaps you might think.

My questions would be - what hours is he doing at nursery? 15hrs? Wraparound? Every day?

Has there been big changes in the household over the last year or two?

Are you/other parent there at key parts of the day such as eating together? Are routines in place for bedtime etc. Is he getting enough sleep?

Of course. But I can’t get DH to take anything seriously tbh. Anyway. Sorry. I am worried and low and the lack of sleep is becoming an issue but can’t do much.

please talk to your husband and your GP about your low mood and lack of sleep, you really need someone supporting you, its horrible trying to parent when you are struggling with things. you sound like a very caring mum but mums dont have to shoulder all the emotional burden of parenting. big hugs xxx

OP it does sound like it could be neurodiversity.

I have a 5 year old who has always been very challenging from a year old. He would have complete meltdowns and I realised time out didn’t work at all and made everything worse.

We now praise any good behaviour - literally ‘well done, you’re sitting nicely watching tv- great playing - good eating’ it’s so easy for everything to become negative and feel like there are no good points so try to jump on anything good. That way you’ll be giving him the attention he needs in a positive way.

instead of time out we now use a behaviour chart for morning and afternoon and there’s a treat at the end of the week (younger might need a positive daily) and it works really well as he can visually see how his day/week has been and we can discuss it.
We also used an emotions thermometer when the meltdowns were very bad and talked about the colours and where he was feeling and how we could get back down to calm or happy. To help him regulate.
The colour monsters book is good to talk about feelings and colours.

I am sure DS1 has ASC (what would have been called aspergers previously).

It does mean you have to be on it all the time and support and teach and get in there with them - so at the park you can’t just be watching, you need to be on the equipment too playing with him which will be narrating the play ‘oh I wanted to go on there first but there’s someone there, that’s made me a bit cross but it’s ok I’ll wait my turn’
Validate his feelings and show him they’re normal but it’s how we then deal with those big emotions that is important.

It is normal that they will first tell you the obvious advice that does not help.

They are expecting that when you find this advice does not help, you will go back and tell them so. They do not mean "try this, and if it doesn't work, you're doing it wrong and there's nothing we can help you with". They have to tell you the normal obvious advice because for some people they won't have tried this and they need to try it first because it doesn't make sense to launch into investigations and underlying causes for every parent who is having an issue managing their child's behaviour.

Also, as you know, impulsive and unempathetic behaviour at two is much more normal than it is at three. I think that it is worth returning to say "Nothing has changed; I'm still having the same problem".

Some aspects of some of your posts - the idea that there is nothing that can be done to help your son, the idea that his personality is what is driving his behaviour and it can't be changed, the fact you've had suicidal thoughts, whether you plan to act on them or not - all of this is pointing towards depression. Talking therapy may be able to be accessed through your HV for longer than the NHS offer, or through the GP if not, antidepressants may also be an option.

What I did not fit into my long post yesterday is the link that I saw about your son feeling posessive over items and also reacting when other children come on the climbing frame - I wonder if he sees the climbing frame as "his" and this is why he is acting out when other people touch it because he has an expectation that they obviously don't share and so they don't meet it.

Pouring water on a baby's face is not very nice but it is likely to be totally ordinary experimentation and curiosity.

You mentioned some struggles with DS1 taking the baby's toys and that you have to ignore DS2 while you deal with DS1 over this. This is going to sound counterproductive, but what if you did not stop him doing this? My thinking here is that this is a child who clearly struggles with the idea that other children will take his toys and that will be bad. And when he tries to protect what he sees as "his toys", he's getting told off and punished, which perhaps makes him feel even more anxiety about the idea that other people will take things from him. Remember that at three, he may not be able to make a distinction between things like "my favourite teddy that is just mine" and "my best ever toy car" and "my brother's rattle that looks interesting because it's new" and "the communal large play structure that belongs to everyone". Working on the concept of understanding personal vs communal belongings might be helpful here. You probably want to do it outside of a conflict moment and make it fun and positive.

What we did when DS3 was little and DS2 wanted to take every toy the baby had, we would suggest to him "if you want the toy DS3 has, can you find him something else to play with first?" We showed him that by offering DS3 another toy, the baby would usually take it (because babies have short attention spans and like shiny things) and drop the item that DS2 wanted. That meant DS2 was happy because he got his item, and DS3 was not screaming having had something removed. It helped teach DS2 that DS3 was a person with emotions and thoughts and expectations too.

Once DS3 got a bit older and started going after DS2's toys directly, we modified this and got DS2 to run and find a similar/alternative for DS3. Again, scaffolding a solution where DS2 gets to keep his toy and DS3 gets something too. And now that they are older and DS3 isn't so easily fobbed off, I've started pointing out to DS2 that if he just waits (usually for less than 5 minutes) DS3 will almost always give him a turn. Sometimes that waiting is enforced but often he is pretty happy to come and sit on my lap and just have some company in the fact it's hard to wait. And it seems to be paying off because it's frequently less necessary to intervene at all - they are spontaneously deciding to share or thinking about which items can be offered to the other. It's making the gap between their relative abilities quite obvious because DS3 at 2 is about at the same level of sharing as DS2 is at 5. But that in some ways makes it easier to reinforce the behaviour that we like.

Yeah … I do give him loads of praise honestly. So yesterday he seemed about to grab a block from a younger boy and didn’t so praised for that. Then tried to drag a kid out of a toy car [ hmm]

Bertie problem is it’s often stuff like a baby bouncy chair or similar. DS would break it. We’ve had to hide the Christmas present from grandparents. Just gets to me.

I am presuming that due to his age he was a lockdown baby.

Do you think that because he didn’t see interaction with other children this might have affected him

I note on a lot of occasions he appears to want to keep other children away from him. In a roundabout off the wall way do you think he has in his 3 year old mind that other people shouldn’t be around him and it is his idea of social distancing

Does he get timeout at soft play type things and get to watch other children interacting before joining in again.

I think boys especially need a lot of exercise. Ds at 3 years old was accompanying me with darling dog on 2 mile walks before spending time in the playground running around
And then back out for another walk in the afternoon

From my memory of reading Raising Boys. 3 year old boys have so many hormones flooding their body as they make the transition from baby to boy. It’s the equivalent to when they transition from being a boy to being a man

I could except that @Yalta but he’s been the same since being just over a year old. Not sure re lockdown. It’s possible but his friends don’t behave like him.