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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this isn’t normal 3 yo behaviour?

166 replies

Threestepsbackwwards · 26/12/2023 11:44

Consistent with shoving other kids out of the way, trying to kick for no reason, etc.

It’s been going on since about 16 months for context.

OP posts:
Hercisback · 27/12/2023 18:13

What does he say if you ask him why?

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:17

Why did you try to hurt that child? Probably wouldn’t answer.

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/12/2023 18:20

The problem is, he isn’t upset or angry. It’s fine, he’s happy, enjoying himself. Then kicks someone in the face. It isn’t a loss of control when frustrated - I could understand that.

Hm yes, I can see why you're worried. I don't remember development stages exactly but I do think three years is old for that. I would say this is health visitor/GP territory because they can refer on if necessary. They may well suggest a parenting group as a next step anyway. I got pointed at a parenting group while we waited for referrals to CAMHS.

Infusedwithfigandhoney · 27/12/2023 18:20

I would warn him before you get to the park etc
Then if he does it immediately home.
Then discuss why.

At the moment he goes to the park, kicks, gets a warning,plays again,then does it again , then goes home.
Zero tolerance.
If he does it several times then stop the park telling him why.
I don't think stopping nursery helps, he will learn how to behave from others.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:23

He doesn’t care. Well, he does, but doesn’t seem to get that we left because of his behaviour. Then we get stuck in a negative sort of cycle where he’s upset etc. I’m worried about tomorrow as heavy rain and wind is forecast but nowhere to take him he won’t attack.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 27/12/2023 18:24

Aah sorry I can see I've missed bits and you've posted in between my longer posts which I sort of typed and then ran because DS2 wanted me to do lego with him.

I'll catch up (I've got that cuppa now!) and let's see if we can help you feel more positive/like there are steps forward. Because there ARE. I fully fully totally 100% believe this, I have been in that "Aaaaaargh" frustration point, I have half wondered if I should just give DS1 to his aunty and let him live with her. He is 15 now and a lovely boy, totally calm, not a bully at all. It took a lot of work (and some just waiting for him to grow up) but we got there. Understanding really really really helps. It feels hopeless when you're seeing it just as malice and I promise you that it is not. Or at least, not pure malice for no reason. It will make sense to him somehow and once you've got that, you're able to help him.

DS2 is now in the frustrating arsehole stage so I haven't forgotten what it's like. We will get there.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:25

Thanks. I do appreciate that. I’m not going to be engaging with HVs etc though so it might be frustrating if that’s the advice [smile ]

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/12/2023 18:26

Plus and harsh as this may sound, ADHD isn’t curable. If he has it (which I don’t think he has) then there’s not much we can do. It vindicates me to a point I suppose but that’s little comfort.

ADHD and ASC might not be curable - they are not illnesses! - but the right parenting strategies, the right adaptaions, the right education, and often in the case of ADHD the right medication, can make a huge difference to how a child grows up.

If your DC has ADHD or ASC there will be a huge amount you can do. It will be a lot of work but massively worthwhile.

Octonaut4Life · 27/12/2023 18:34

If you ask a child of his age why they did something they can't really answer. But you can say to them things like "how would you feel if someone did that to you?" And encourage them to see it from the other child's point of view, and talk about it that way. Is he able to understand that if he hurts someone it makes them feel sad or angry, and can he understand that's not nice and it wouldn't be okay for someone to do it to him?

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/12/2023 18:34

I’m not going to be engaging with HVs etc though so it might be frustrating if that’s the advice

That's up to you, you're the mum. Are you OK going via the GP or nursery instead? Sometimes it's possible / easy to bypass the HV, sometimes it's very hard, it may depend where you live.

I don't know much if you're totally going it alone though because that's not the route I took.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:36

@Octonaut4Life i really think he knows this. Sometimes if I have those sorts of conversations with him he will say sorry to me but obviously I’m not the one he needs to say it too.

I think there’s an element of seeing what he can get away with but he is aggressive. I can’t really put any other spin on it.

OP posts:
RoseGoldEagle · 27/12/2023 18:41

I had similar concerns about my DS at 3, including the sometimes hurting other children with no provocation or indication he was stressed or upset before hand. I remember going to a playground when there was one other little girl there, who was minding her own business and playing, and he just chased her wherever she went and tried to stop her playing on whatever equipment it was, physically pushing her or trying to restrain her. (Obviously we intervened to stop and warned him we’d take him home if he continued, which we then did). It was just such a different experience to his elder sister, who would play with anyone and would never have hit a child at the age of 3.

He’s 4 nearly 5 now, and the change in him since starting school is enormous. It’s like he’s grown up a year and a half in 3 months. He’s still a bit cautious of people he doesn’t know, but will either say hi or ignore them, he no longer randomly hits or shoves them (I think it was an anxiety thing before). He’s got some lovely little friendships in reception and is thriving. Of course I don’t know the situation with your DS, but just wanted to share as I think 3 is still within the realms of this behaviour being ‘normal’, (but I agree it’s very stressful, I was very worried for ages), and doesn’t indicate he’s going to be like this forever.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:42

Thank you so much @RoseGoldEagle

OP posts:
Escaperoom · 27/12/2023 18:49

I think it is fair to note that the OP didn't actually ask for help or advice. What she asked was if this was normal behaviour for a 3 year old. In my (not particularly vast) experience the answer to that would be no, not usually, not the way she is describing it. What should she do about it? Well she seems to be ruling out all the free sources of help available and can't afford the paid kind, but as I said above she didn't actually ask for help, so maybe we should all butt out and stop offering what isn't wanted. When he gets to school (assuming she isn't planning to home school) next year if this kind of thing is still going on then if his school is anything like the one my DGD attends they will be on to it straight away. There is still hope that he might grow out of it in the meantime however.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 19:04

@Escaperoom I am not trying to be churlish or rude.

I don’t really want advice because most of it has already been tried. Sometimes we seem to be making progress but then there will be an incident that makes me feel that we aren’t making any progress at all. We had a good run, it seemed anyway, but then back to square one. As you can imagine I feel disheartened and upset.

(the baby has been sleeping very badly and as a result so am I - of course - which is also getting me down.)

Involving GPs, HVs and the like for what appears to be a very sweet, well behaved little boy would get me labelled neurotic at best. I’ve explicitly asked nursery if they believe he has additional needs and they’ve clearly indicated no.

@RoseGoldEagle has clearly described DS without meeting him. That sort of behaviour is him to a T. It isn’t every time we go somewhere. For example the weekend before Christmas there were two birthday parties: loud and chaotic and he was fine, no altercations or aggression. Then we’re at a playground and it’s all fine and child comes behind him and he kicks and I’m lost.

He most probably is testing boundaries and I know I have a very visceral reaction as I grew up with violence. DHs upbringing was more normal so he’s probably more pragmatic.

OP posts:
PaperDoIIs · 27/12/2023 19:07

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 18:17

Why did you try to hurt that child? Probably wouldn’t answer.

A better way to ask is what happened. I work with kids and if they think they're in trouble/they did the wrong thing they either become belligerent or shut down. What happened helps to get them to open up more and also get things from their perspective. It might be a skewed perspective sometimes,but it can explain why.

BertieBotts · 27/12/2023 19:13

I've written quite a bit in another window because I didn't want to lose it through refreshing the thread. I'm getting the sense though that you actually want people to tell you that your DS will grow out of this without you doing anything different and everything will be fine. If that is what you want, then I will take my unhelpful rambling somewhere else. If you would like to hear someone else's experience/what I've found out over the last 12+ years then I would be happy to share it.

BertieBotts · 27/12/2023 19:14

And no I have not written paragraphs saying just "go to the HV" Grin

wudubelieveit · 27/12/2023 19:15

You haven’t said much about what aspects of parenting your husband is involved in?to be very stereotypical your boy is moving from the mummy nurturing stage as it were to being more outward looking and a typical male figure is involved in teaching boundaries, the limits of rough play ,managing own strength etc….I’m wondering what his relationship is like with his dad and how his play /behaviour is when he’s with his dad? @Threestepsbackwwards if you have grown up experiencing male violence I think it’s really important your OH steps up for this issue as seeing what a “good “ father teaches about anger and aggression will be really important…however we do tend to marry people through whom we work through our own childhood issues, for good and for bad, so just to flag up as these dynamics may be surfacing somehow!

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 19:16

No that’s OK @BertieBotts . I’m not really ‘wanting’ anyone to tell me anything. I tend to work out things as I type.

@PaperDoIIs thank you. He doesn’t tend to give details (does any 3 year old) so if you ask how he got the scratch on his face he might say Thomas, but no details as to whether Thomas was acting in self defence or not!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 27/12/2023 20:03

Okay :) And apologies for there being some "speak to HV" in there but if you're working out as you type, which I def do as well - then maybe it's a useful thinking point anyway.

Speaking to a HV or GP does not mean that you are looking for a diagnosis or being neurotic, though. To me the reason to do this would be to say "I'm struggling with some difficult behaviour in my child, and I'm looking to rule out underlying causes such as recurrent ear infection, speech delay, hearing problems, and anything else I might not have thought of as I am not a medical professional".

They probably will ask how he is at nursery, which is why communication with nursery is a good idea. I would go to nursery first. (take notes/ask for a written report) Find out any patterns. What specific problems are they having. What doesn't work. What does work well. Any areas (social, impulse control, behaviour, what do they think?) where he's out of step with his peers. Take this info to HV and see what she suggests as next steps. I don't think this will have your card marked as an anxious mother, I think this will come across as diligent and organised. If they say no, everything is normal, he will grow out of it, then ask when would she expect you to see an improvement, and what should you do if there is no improvement? Explain that you are concerned about this behaviour persisting into school, and that you do not want your son to become a playground bully. That's your concern, isn't it? So you can just be honest about it. That won't come across as neurotic.

You also said you wanted a parenting course, they can refer you to one for free (and it will be a decent one) or I also linked to one much earlier in the thread, and someone posted the link to Incredible Years, which is another (similar) evidence based approach.

Forget diagnoses for a moment because I think this is causing you to get stuck in a loop of "but he doesn't have that and anyway if he does have that I can't do anything" (Someone else answered the "can't do anything" v well above). You said that you are wondering if this is temporary. It seems to me that he is a little bit stuck in a stage most children leave behind earlier, which might mean that he won't move out of this easily without help. I don't mean to paint a bleak picture but I do think that if you get stuck in an unhelpful cycle there is a potential (NOT guaranteed!!) outcome where he continues to act out, you and other adults - nursery, school, etc - and other kids, kick back, or dislike him and he ends up with this negative self-image and combative automatic defensive response. That's the worst case scenario and where you don't want to go because it takes even more work to unpick that. So how to change the story? Look at what all the challenging behaviour experts say. Not the normal parenting "experts" (many of whom are anything but) but the ones who go into schools and work directly with the worst behaved children who don't respond to anything else. (Ross Greene, Becky Bailey, Stuart Shanker, Alan Kazdin, Thomas Phelan, Mona Delahooke, various Occupational Therapists or behaviourists, for example).

And they basically all say variations of the same thing:

If you're repeatedly doing the same thing and it's not working, it's probably not the case that the child is refusing to meet your behaviour expectation, it's probably that they can't - there's a gap there between their ability and what you're asking them to do.

Most of them BTW say that if there's a diagnosis it's not necessarily relevant - a diagnosis will get you access to any therapies and medications (maybe) and an EHCP at school etc and it might give you info about what might be realistic in a child of that age with that condition, but it doesn't change anything about what you actually do. The process is the same, diagnosed condition, undiagnosed, no condition at all.

They all say that harsher/stricter punishment isn't the answer and generally makes the situation worse. I know you have not suggested this.

Then they tend to split off into what they do recommend, with a lot of similarities.

All of them emphasise building connection is important. Positive regard for the child is important. Catching them being good, and recognising this (with praise, rewards, attention or even just noticing) is important.

Many of them recommend getting really specific about the exact behaviour that you're expecting to see. This helps in a couple of ways - it means that you can see if it's really realistic. For example if you're currently at "unprovoked physical violence" and you want to get to "plays nicely/neutrally ignores other children" that's quite a large gap. You would not expect your younger child to potty train tomorrow, I expect. You know that there is a long way to go in terms of verbal communication, recognising their body sensations, bladder development, being able to physically reach the toilet and take on and off clothing. Difficult behaviour is basically social skills and this is the same. Breaking this down into more manageable steps, and working out what the required underlying skills are can be extremely helpful.

Some provide info about what is likely going on behind the behaviour. For example, both Mona Delahooke and Stuart Shanker, and a lot of OTs talk about the concept of stress-response behaviour. This one has been huge for me. I could see it happening with DS1 but had no language to explain it to anybody else. Now I understand what is happening.

Some differentiators for misbehaviour vs stress behaviour are that misbehaviour is able to be changed through normal discipline techniques, punishment, reasoning, etc. It's behaviour that is thought through and decided upon and has a sort of logic to it (even if it's childish logic or results in something antisocial) the child can reflect on what they were thinking at the time and why. You can interrupt it and the child might be defensive but ultimately will respond to discipline in an appropriate way.

Whereas stress behaviour tends to be extremely sudden and seem to come "out of nowhere". It can often be violent. If they are talking, their voice will be harsh and high pitched. They may even laugh. Their body will be tense, if you put a hand on them to try to move them, block them or just try to connect with them/calm them down you can feel this. Their face may have a strong expression, even seeming "evil" or "manic". Discipline attempts tend to be like adding fuel to the fire and ramp them up rather than down. It can often take a long time to calm them down, and by the time they have calmed down they have absolutely no idea what you are talking about when you try to discuss it with them. They either shut down and refuse to give an answer, give a silly answer, or literally don't seem to remember/understand. Discipline has no effect on it and it will continue to happen, often with a pattern of the general surroundings of the trigger, even if the trigger itself is somewhat of a mystery. It can be difficult to see the overarching pattern, which is why conferring with other settings/adults can help.

The explanation for why it is so sudden and out of the blue is that what you're seeing with stress behaviour is the culmination of dozens of individual, tiny, invisible stresses which are all feeding into a sort of "Buckaroo" effect on the child, where this one thing happens and it sets off a sort of explosion of all of the other things. You know like when you are having a bad day and your DH makes a stupid joke and you snap at him, whereas another day you would just roll your eyes and ignore it? It's basically like a very extreme version of that.

gooddayruby · 27/12/2023 20:33

Children don't develop full impulse control under around 4 so I wouldn't worry that they'll be a violent person.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 20:54

@BertieBotts i am probably too tired to give that post full justice but a genuine and heartfelt thank you.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 27/12/2023 21:05

Don't worry, that's OK. Smile Get some sleep. I bet it will not be like this next Christmas, if you can get the right info behind you (which a lot of the standard parenting advice is not).

Vettrianofan · 27/12/2023 21:39

Threestepsbackwwards · 26/12/2023 12:02

Have looked into parenting classes but mostly seems to be sponsored/expensive stuff, hard knowing what’s genuine. Plus I don’t think I’m doing anything drastically different. Not perfect but is anyone? So don’t know really.

Check out Solihull Parenting Approach. These classes can be done online.

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