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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this isn’t normal 3 yo behaviour?

166 replies

Threestepsbackwwards · 26/12/2023 11:44

Consistent with shoving other kids out of the way, trying to kick for no reason, etc.

It’s been going on since about 16 months for context.

OP posts:
Threestepsbackwwards · 26/12/2023 14:56

And yes meeting all milestones fine which is why I don’t think SEN (nursery agree.)

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 26/12/2023 15:59

OK so you say that you thought perhaps speech was an issue before, but it didn't get better. Has his speech improved? You say no concerns with speech, but he didn't tell the boy to get down off the climbing frame, or invite him to play, or talk to him at all - he went straight to kicking?

I don't think that nursery saying there are no special needs means that it's definitely just the way he is or parenting. It's like you're seeing this as a black and white issue but it is not. The problem is that at three there is such a range in development and behaviour.

So you will have children who are fine at nursery, and respond well to basically any reasonable discipline technique and are naturally eager to please and will adopt prosocial behaviours by coping other children and adult role models, listening to messages given by teachers, parents, books, TV etc.

Then a little bit further down the scale, you'll have children who are a bit more challenging, maybe not in all settings, they will respond to discipline and they get there with the good behaviour, it just takes a bit of time and consistency.

Then a little bit further down the scale, you'll have children who have more persistent behavioural problems, they don't naturally pick up the social behaviours, they don't necessarily have any SEN or disorders, but they do need a bit more targeted behaviour management specifically to teach them the correct behaviours or work on the skills they are struggling with or just scaffold them a bit until their development catches up. We can't all be good at everything, and while some children will be really social but struggle with maths for example, there will be children who struggle with social skills, or emotions, or impulse control. Not to the level of it being anything diagnosable. Just needing a little bit of extra support with learning that.

Then you'll have the kids that do have some kind of SEN but it's so borderline it's hard to detect, their behaviour/milestones aren't significantly off track but they just seem to be that bit more difficult a lot of the time. IME, nurseries and schools typically don't alert to these cases because it requires a more skilled, experienced eye.

The cases of SEN that are so clear that nurseries pick up on them are quite far at the severe end of the scale IME. These children stand out quite clearly from other children their age. I think this is probably why those "borderline" cases don't alert nurseries, because they are looking for a presentation like this, whereas they may miss a more subtle one.

For example, I live in another European country where there are regular developmental check ups. Nursery never picked up on my middle child needing speech support but his paediatrician did. In the UK unfortunately you don't get this automatic yearly check up so it's up to you to ask your health visitor if you have any concerns about your child. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have thought to. In fact, my eldest child's speech was similar and when we lived in the UK I did not get him looked at because I did not realise that his speech would be concerning.

Which is all to say - I don't think that you necessarily need to be thinking that your DS has SEN to look for support or try a more focused behaviour coaching type approach. I can also understand if you're wary of your child being labelled, but to me it does make sense to rule out really easy things like a speech delay, hearing issue, stomach pain, glue ear etc.

TornIntoPieces · 26/12/2023 16:07

BertieBotts · 26/12/2023 11:54

"not normal" does not always mean "poor parenting", it could mean:

Sensory difficulties
Underlying painful health condition
Socio-emotional developmental delay
Speech and communication delay (incl hearing issues)
Poor frustration tolerance
Extra strong emotions (needing more emotional regulation skills than usual)
Underlying stress for child
Poor role models
Reactive nervous system
Poor impulse control
Struggles with flexibility
Poor problem solving skills

Some of these would benefit from a health and developmental check up whereas some can be improved with the right kind of parental support.

I like this post, generally sums up what I'd say with the addition of difficult home environment.

I have seen children behave like this, usually without firm boundaries and overly gentle parenting. My toddler herself, as most do, tried this but firm tellings and seeing through what I've said seemed to help. I'm generally all for gentle parenting but there needs to be clear boundaries and you need to be unwavering bar any major circumstances such as illness /big day out/etc etc.

Toddlers/children will attempt to push boundaries , that is normal and shows that in most cases they feel secure enough to do so. It's what you do after that helps. Not always though. See reasons above. Starting young helps a lot more though, set the tone early.

UnbeatenMum · 26/12/2023 16:30

I don't think it's that usual but also don't think it's necessarily poor parenting, it sounds like you're doing what most parents do in that situation. If you think he's doing it calmly it could be poor impulse control which could just be because he's 3 but could be something to keep an eye on. Or maybe he's had a bad experience in a play area with other children and wants to keep them away. Dropping toys next to a (your?) newborn could be normal sibling jealousy.

Namechange4234 · 26/12/2023 16:50

Threestepsbackwwards · 26/12/2023 14:53

I don’t think he’s a psychopath Smile I just don’t know what is going on with him really. I’m not looking for advice really @AlohaRose . I’m just trying to get a grasp on what’s normal. I feel it’s probably been going on too long to say it is normal and maybe it’s parenting but again hard to say as strategies you would use on a toddler aren’t the same as a 3 yo. And yet you also need to be consistent. Hard to know very hard.

It's not parenting

Unless DS sees you calmly kicking people in the face

See the GP

Thepossibility · 26/12/2023 17:03

My nephew was like this at that age. At that point I'd had my own kids and had been around a lot of kids so could see it was more than normal.
He has ADHD.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 11:49

Does ADHD come with a propensity for violence though? Genuinely meant as I didn’t think this was the case. Hard not to feel depressed about it.

OP posts:
Mynewnameis · 27/12/2023 11:55

I'm not sure ADHD causes violence either.
Can you access any service like family gateway in your area?

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 12:05

Honestly it has made me question everything I thought I knew about parenting. I assumed a child brought up in love would be fine. He isn’t fine.

I hate to say it but I think that he’s just not a very pleasant person. He’s aggressive, violent and evil. I regret having him.

OP posts:
inapickle2300 · 27/12/2023 12:11

What consequences do you give him? Eg time out, naughty step, removal of toy.
After he kicked out on the climbing frame, did you let him stay? Or did you go home?

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 12:17

So you remove him after sort of reasonable chance, like if you do that again we go home, then you go home, then it happens again, and again, and again. But it doesn’t always happen. Sometimes all is fine. Busy places do seem to be a trigger. But obviously I don’t always know it somewhere is going to be busy or not.

It’s hard not to succumb to depression. I blame myself, I feel isolated and alone, I hate parenting him. I resent him because he makes me so unhappy. Then I get terrible guilt for these feelings.

OP posts:
PaperDoIIs · 27/12/2023 13:31

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 12:05

Honestly it has made me question everything I thought I knew about parenting. I assumed a child brought up in love would be fine. He isn’t fine.

I hate to say it but I think that he’s just not a very pleasant person. He’s aggressive, violent and evil. I regret having him.

Can you give some concrete examples of incidents and situations where this happens? Also I asked before, how often does this happen? It's hard to advise without a full picture.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 13:36

Hard to say. I thought I had given examples - the climbing frame being one. But here are some that spring to mind.

Once I took him to a playground and one other child was there. He immediately seemed to take a dislike to him shouting ‘get down boy.’ I told him very firmly if he did that again we’d go. Some girls then came to the gate and he ran up like an aggressive dog shouting at them to get away. Removed him.

Another example - standing on a piece of playground equipment and another kid climbing up, he stamped on the kids fingers.

Walking through a corridor once and a toddler coming the other direction, barged into her on purpose.

It is these sort of random little acts of spite - so hard to deal with.

OP posts:
PaperDoIIs · 27/12/2023 13:43

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 13:36

Hard to say. I thought I had given examples - the climbing frame being one. But here are some that spring to mind.

Once I took him to a playground and one other child was there. He immediately seemed to take a dislike to him shouting ‘get down boy.’ I told him very firmly if he did that again we’d go. Some girls then came to the gate and he ran up like an aggressive dog shouting at them to get away. Removed him.

Another example - standing on a piece of playground equipment and another kid climbing up, he stamped on the kids fingers.

Walking through a corridor once and a toddler coming the other direction, barged into her on purpose.

It is these sort of random little acts of spite - so hard to deal with.

Does he have the same behaviours at nursery? What about with his younger brother?

Does he say anything after? Can he explain why? Does he show consideration and empathy for others outside these incidents?

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 13:47

No - he goes mad when you remove him but it’s anger.

He has started to be better with ds2. He used to be very mean and pinched, tried to crush him etc, but is better now. Still needs watching but I don’t think that’s unusual.

Nursery … very, very hard to say. I had a lot of poor reports at one point but I will admit I got upset about it and I’m worried he’s still behaving badly but they are concerned I’ll withdraw him if they report badly of him, so hard to know.

OP posts:
BusMumsHoliday · 27/12/2023 14:23

I have a 3 year old DS who has displayed challenging behaviour and is on the ASD pathway. He doesn't have very noticeable delays and I'm not sure nursery would have raised it with us, if we hadn't opened the discussion. I absolutely agree with @BertieBotts that some borderline cases can slip under the radar - kids who struggle socially without being a million miles from expected levels, some of whom don't meet criteria for a diagnosis of any kind, and some who will.

Kindly, you need to separate your emotions about the situation from the actions you can take. You need to talk to nursery about your concerns without getting upset or angry. That won't help him or you. And I do think you should approach your HV.

You seem to both want help and to dismiss all the obvious sources of help, which seems strange. Are you depressed about other areas of your life? Do you have much support in parenting?

My son's behaviour has improved immensely with supports in place and as he's matured a bit towards 4. There's no reason why your son will always be like this. It might take him longer than other kids, or he might need adjustments or teaching in different ways. But you can do those things with help.

MatildaTheCat · 27/12/2023 14:40

@Threestepsbackwwards Im sorry you are having such a tough time with your son. You do seem to be resistant to approaching your GP or HV for advice. Do you fear being seen as a poor parent? In fact it’s seen as a strength to recognise an issue and seek support. Some children really do benefit from differing approaches to behavioural issues.

ADHD can certainly include poor impulse control so could potentially be in the background but he’s very young for any diagnosis and even if he had one it would still boil down to finding techniques that work for him.

I think in your shoes now is try and avoid places where these incidents occur unless you can literally be with him like glue. You don’t mention his father- is he around and supportive?

For some reassurance I had one very bitey and tantrummy 3 year old who grew into a delightful little boy and man. His brother was a delightful baby and toddler who became a little sod for much of his childhood and is also a great young man.

Keep the faith and get some support.

ExTheCheater · 27/12/2023 14:43

Child needs to be disciplined better. Lack of authority.

ExTheCheater · 27/12/2023 14:46

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 11:49

Does ADHD come with a propensity for violence though? Genuinely meant as I didn’t think this was the case. Hard not to feel depressed about it.

My sons never been violent and has adhd and autism.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 14:50

I have never been angry with nursery. I did say (very nicely) that I didn’t feel it was helpful to just keep telling me he’d hurt other children without any sort of further discussion about what they wanted and that if he was unhappy and making other children unhappy it might be best to consider withdrawing him. After that it’s all gone silent.

@MatildaTheCat the problem is that I don’t feel it’s healthy to just stay indoors … really hard, encouraging yours grew out of it though.

OP posts:
Scattery · 27/12/2023 14:54

Hey OP, sorry to hear of these challenges. I disagree with the "it's bad parenting!" and "he needs discipline!" approaches because after reading all your posts, including about your DS having toys snatched by older kids, I'm wondering if he.... just doesn't understand how to interact with other kids.

I'm sure this will sound fruity to some people but what about modelling behaviour? So if your son sees another child in the park, maybe you could make a game of waving to the other child? Make a game of climbing up the frame and modelling what to do if another child comes along - maybe your son could learn to say "Watch out! I'm up here too!" rather than kicking. What you'll want to try to do is replace his problematic behaviours with actions that are okay.

I've an autistic DS and an ADHD DD so spent a lot of years being hands-on lol. I promise he's not the person at 3 that he will be later. He will mature. There will be light at the end of the tunnel.

thedementedelf · 27/12/2023 15:02

3 year olds know not to kick people in the face and drop big toys next to babies.

Not normal imo.

Threestepsbackwwards · 27/12/2023 15:06

Thanks @Scattery . Sometimes he does play nicely. The worst of ds is definitely on this thread. Having said that I do agree he seems to struggle with social interactions sometimes. He does have friends and children he likes but maybe his ‘default’ when it’s an unknown entity is aggression rather than shyness (which is probably more socially acceptable.)

OP posts:
MaryHinges · 27/12/2023 15:21

So it's possible he could still be hurting other children at nursery and they are just not telling you because you didn't think it was helpful to keep telling you he was hurting other children without expanding on it? I really think you need to speak to nursery and be a little more open to what they say. This isn't something they can just fix for you. It does sound like there could be underlying issues here where he isn't able to join the dots when he is hurting other children. I certainly wouldn't have assumed it all just stopped when you decided you didn't really want to hear what they were saying. Don't wait for a sudden unexpected exclusion from nursery. Find out yourself if there are still issues.

JanglyBeads · 27/12/2023 15:21

So are you a single parent OP? Do you have any family support? Anyone who is also close to the situation.

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