To think this isn’t normal 3 yo behaviour?

[Threestepsbackwwards]

Consistent with shoving other kids out of the way, trying to kick for no reason, etc.

It’s been going on since about 16 months for context.

If these are (mostly/sometimes) his responses to new children or new situations - have you gone around with him and when new kids arrive, show him how to act. Say look "little three steps back, here is a little girl wanting to say hi, let's say hi, let's wave, let's show them how we play with kind hands etc etc so you are repeatedly training him the correct approach to new people. You don't know maybe if he still associates new people negatively from childcare.

Before you get to the park have a nice chat on the way, "so we are going to play in the park, climbing in the frame, we need to be really careful we don't hurt people fingers don't we as that's not kind, ohh there may be knew children to say Hi to, they don't know you either, so maybe say Hi when we see them, that would be kind"
As you supervise him, praise him every time he is on equipment with another chil without any issue, "well done, look at you being a great climber with people around you " or if after encouraging he says hi, or waves, or doesn't shout at other kids acknowledge that's a behaviour that's good "great job being friendly, I'm proud that's really kind".

Are you explaining why we don't do that - it hurts people, makes them sad etc at 3 they can start to understand this

I have @MaryHinges . I’ve tried to work with them with an action plan but it hasn’t got very far. It’s either he’s had a good day or he’s not, really.

It really wasn’t that I didn’t want to hear what they are saying. I am quite willing to listen to people saying my parenting is bad but that’s a misrepresentation.

From my point of view I’m picking ds up and being told he’s been unkind, he’s done this, he’s done that. Eventually, I sent a very nice email (I will actually anonymise it and post it on here if you want me to) expressing concern that the situation was unpleasant for everyone - other children, DS and staff, and where did we go from here.

I am not a single parent. I am married, but I’d say 90% of the parenting is done by me so if it’s poor parenting I definitely take responsibility for that. I don’t have any extended family though.

How do you discipline him when he does something like this? What is his reaction?
What does he do at home? Like what are his interests?

He likes cars, planes, helicopters and boats. Oh, and fire engines / ambulances etc.

At home to be honest his behaviour is OK - can be whingey when tired but nothing out of the ordinary. But it’s when anywhere with other children he can become unpleasant.

I don't think your parenting is bad. It sounds to me like your LO is easily overstimulated, and this is what is causing the strange behaviour that makes him seem bad/angry, and also why good, ordinary, sensible parenting is not working.

That's not caused by parenting, it's just temperament/the way someone is born. But he is NOT bad. I promise you. I listen to a lot of experts who work with behaviourally challenging children and ALL of them, literally every single one of them, they all say they have never met a bad child. A challenging child, yes. Parents and teachers struggling with this child, because they don't have the right tools, absolutely. Children acting out because of something that they can't control, yes. But once you get the right pieces of the puzzle in place, it gets better.

ADHD does not "cause" violence, but can cause for example:

Emotional dysregulation - they feel feelings much stronger than other people
Difficulty with impulse control - less able to pause and think about consequences before acting
Less awareness of social cues - so other children's behaviour might not make sense to him.

Now bear in mind the fact that even a totally normal 3yo can quite regularly become overwhelmed by their emotions, struggle with impulse control, and have not learned much in the way of acceptable social interaction.

If he feels frustrated, or threatened, or just annoyed - the mature response is to say "Please stop doing that", "Leave me alone" or walk away, or tell an adult. But it is a very rare three year old who is mature enough to do these things every single time. They tend to resort to immature coping strategies fairly regularly, because they are immature - they haven't built these skills yet. Thumping or kicking someone or throwing things or screaming or blowing a raspberry at someone are all examples of immature responses.

So yes, in a very roundabout way, ADHD can show up like violent impulses because someone with ADHD will be more likely to be frustrated/irritated/threatened by others, they are less likely to be able to moderate their response, and they are less likely to know what the correct response is. But if you support a child with ADHD by helping them learn how to replace those impulses with behaviours you like (like saying "leave me alone" or asking a teacher for help) AND you help them by ensuring their environment is not so overstimulating or they are getting the right amount of sensory input for instance, or you ensure they are more closely supervised so that an adult can help moderate child-to-chi then the violence will probably stop or hugely reduce. It isn't like it's a part of ADHD, but it can be a sign that the ADHD (or other issues) aren't being managed very well.

Thanks @BertieBotts . I think what I struggle with so much is that a lot of the behaviour isn’t as a result of over stimulation - it’s just mean. I don’t think that’s always been the case (grab a cuppa)

I do think there have been times he’s struggled with emotions. He is / can be very possessive around toys and belongings and I know that’s normal to a point but he’s also got real dog in the manger tendencies, the second he sees another kid on something or sees his brother playing with a toy he wants it. I am a bit concerned his brother is going to grow up without any belongings as he just takes everything. At the moment ds2 is too young to care but he will and it feels uncomfortable the extent to which ds2 is ignored while I deal with ds1. But again I know normal to a point.

But while I could deal with some stuff spite is probably so hard, the hardest of the lot. I’ve read about angry kids and frustrated kids but mean kids?

I am also not saying your DS has ADHD by the way - just explaining how for example ADHD could show up as violent behaviour, even though ADHD itself does not cause violence (it's not a tic disorder, for example).

With the example where he was on the climbing frame, and he was screaming "Get away! Go away!" - I know that this is also not very nice, but shouting at somebody is less of a problem than violence. And this is also telling you that he wants the other child not to come near him - why?

As a thought experiment, for a moment, imagine a situation where you yourself might shout "Get away!! Go away!" - you would probably imagine something terrible, like an aggressive dog with no owner in sight, or a violent person coming to harm you or your child. A scary or unpredictable situation. Not one where you hate the person, but where you fear that they might harm you.

What if all social interaction with other kids feels like that for him? Would you want to help and support him with that, or would you want to try and shut down the only ways he thinks he has to keep himself "safe"?

Making an action plan with nursery might be very helpful. I would make an appointment with them and see if you can see any patterns between you. I would strongly suspect that what you're seeing here is stress behaviour, coming from fear/anxiety rather than any innate spitefulness. All of your examples seem to be triggered by other children coming close to him. It would be helpful if you could discuss with nursery whether they have found the same. Also, busy places - you could ask them if they have noticed the same. Any other patterns either you or nursery have observed.

You could ask them where they think he is in terms of social skills with peers, and whether they have supported any other children with social skills before, and what they found effective.

You could ask whether there are any children that he does interact positively with. If so, encouraging more interaction (e.g. outside of nursery) would be good. Also the nursery encouraging that friendship. Basically finding out from them if there are situations that he does well in (such as smaller groups).

I'm sure they don't want to lose a child (fees) and you don't want him to miss out on the benefits of nursery. They likely want to work with you so having a meeting can support this.

He wasn’t doing that though Bertie. We went into the park and straight away he ran to the climbing frame barking orders at this little boy. Nursery just say he’s fine now apart from the odd incident. I have no way of knowing what’s true or not and I don’t think I care anymore. I know that sounds terrible but I just don’t think I love, like or want him.

What crawled up your arse and died? Wind your neck in. Not OP's fault you're embarrassed you made an assumption and turned out to be wrong.

She’s always like that. Don’t worry about it. Some posters are best having your own mental ‘ignore poster’ button with.

Maybe that's where you are going wrong? A 3 year old has no concept of 'mean'. That's your own interpretation but clearly something else is going on for him. This is where your own engagement is needed. So when you did engage with the nursery you say it went nowhere, but why was that not persuade? Why was it allowed to go nowhere? The more you say, the more I'm thinking ADHD and I'm the last person to say that. Unfortunately I think you are going to have to step out of your own comfort zone to move this forward. You say you won't speak to the health visitor, likewise you won't speak to SS, and effectively you told the nursery you didn't want to hear he had been hurting other children unless they were going to fix it for you (tell you what they wanted you to do) but who WILL you speak to? The first thing I think I would be doing is going back to the nursery and asking for absolutely everything, even if it's uncomfortable listening then looking into a further referral.

And - I didn’t really mean that post above. Of course I love him and want him.

But he was 3 last month, and the first time I noticed aggression / territorial behaviour was around 16/17 months. So for over half his life I’ve been on edge when he’s around other kids (sometimes he’s fine by the way) which has obviously limited what we can do.

I am also not going to make any claims to perfection here and I know I’ve dealt with it badly sometimes. I find it really upsetting.

I’ve gone from thinking it’s temporary to wondering if it’s temporary. Seeing an 18 month old trying to push another 18 month old, that’s one thing. A 3 year old trying to kick a younger kids head is another matter. And what if I’m still here at four and a half and he’s kicking and hitting younger kids, including own brother - that’s a bully, isn’t it? And we know how bullies are received. That’s likely to significantly impact his life and his brothers.

Obviously the above is worst case scenario and I’m sure some will accuse me of being dramatic but I was in this position last Christmas and I still am. What about next Christmas? What then?

It sounds really sad that your relationship with him has deteriorated to the extent that you describe him as evil and say you don't think you love, like or want him.

It's possible that you've both become trapped in a cycle where he behaves in this way, that reinforces your negative feelings, then he picks up on those feelings and experiences an insecure relationship with a primary attachment figure, then this triggers him being more likely to behave in this way again, and so on...

I'd suggest speaking the nursery and HV/GP, and at the same time trying to rebuild the connection between you and your son. What could you do together to just enjoy being with each other?

@MaryHinges this is really tedious. I told the nursery nothing of the sort. I will attach the email I sent if you would like me to. If you’re just going to keep repeating lies and untruths, stop. It’s a shitty thing to do when you must be able to see how broken I am. In real life, if you saw someone hurting I’m sure you wouldn’t march up to them and bossily tell them their coat is blue when it was red. So stop doing it to me.

If - it’s a huge if - he has ADHD, it isn’t generally diagnosed at this age. And if I make a fuss now I’m guaranteeing that if there are problems in the future I won’t be taken seriously as I’ll be that over anxious mother.

As for HVs - I really don’t know whether things have changed since covid or if there’s a general naivety about what they do. Ours hasn’t met DS once. He was last seen by a HV at 10 months old. If I went to them claiming DS had adhd the first question is going to be about nursery and what they think.

Plus and harsh as this may sound, ADHD isn’t curable. If he has it (which I don’t think he has) then there’s not much we can do. It vindicates me to a point I suppose but that’s little comfort.

Did you take him home after this incident or did you let him play again?

I have answered this several times. He is given one warning then taken home. He screams, cries, then it happens again. And again and again and again. And yes it does make me wonder if he is just prone to aggression.

The above is very bleak and isn’t representative of what he’s like all of even most of the time. But he doesn’t seem particularly fond of or tolerant towards other children and the older he gets the more of an issue that is.

I had this with my son. He was quite hyper and at times frustrated. We've since discovered he's dyspraxsic and the behaviour was a part of it. Tasks involving fine motor skills (drawing, painting, building models) were triggers. This became very clear when he was trying to learn to draw letters and numbers. He also had balance and coordination problems. The frustration for him was overwhelming. There was lots going on at home as well. It settled down eventually. I just wish we'd known a lot earlier and that the nursery and school had been able to provide the correct support.

It’s hard diagnosing at a young age but there really aren’t many / any signs of SEN.

Dyspraxia for example - motor skills are very good and always have been. Can use playground equipment designed for much older children with little or no help. Really good with fine motor skills too.

ADHD - I’ve taken him to theatre performances, church services, things that require a certain amount of sitting and listening and he’s fine. He doesn’t (yet) watch films or show much interest in jigsaws for instance. But that’s not hugely significant.

ASD - this can be a contentious one as am well aware that one person with ASD is one person, however

Makes eye contact
Responds to name
laughs and smiles
has been able to follow basic instructions for a long time
Good verbal skills
Gets involved in imaginative play
Has friends (it surprises me too but he does have friends)

So - not sure.

Oh and eats and sleeps well too

Start with a toddler/preschool parenting group - Triple P, Positive Parenting, or whatever your local area has to offer. Your health visitor or GP should be able to refer you to one.

I don’t really want to go down the HV route.

Well, health visitors are exactly the people who know this stuff. Not saying they're all perfect - there used to be one in my area that all the new mums warned each to avoid! - but this is part of their skill-set.

A good way to find out if it is your parenting really is to try a parenting group. None of us can tell you if your DS's behaviour is "normal". And normal or not, you are worried about it, and the things you've tried so far haven't solved the problem. A parenting group is just the next thing to try. The group will recommend strategies that work for most children and give you the theory behind them, and you will be able to do them and explore what does and doesn't work, and discuss and compare notes with the other parents and the group leader. It will either fix most of the problems, or give you a head start if you do need to discuss your child with professionals.

I did say (very nicely) that I didn’t feel it was helpful to just keep telling me he’d hurt other children without any sort of further discussion about what they wanted and that if he was unhappy and making other children unhappy it might be best to consider withdrawing him. After that it’s all gone silent.

That's because withdrawing him from nursery is (probably) the wrong thing to do. It's not about the money. Withdrawing him at this stage will not help him to learn how to deal with other children, and it will not help anyone to identify whether he has an underlying problem interacting with other children or not. It will only mask the problem.

He does have friends and children he likes but maybe his ‘default’ when it’s an unknown entity is aggression rather than shyness (which is probably more socially acceptable.)

Been there done that. Turned out to be ASC for us, but we didn't find out til DC was a couple of years older. All your reasons for "not sure" I would have given for my own DC at age 3 (and older) as well. You often don't get really clear signs until later.

Wishing you the best OP. It's worrying having a child who's aggressive. Don't give up though flowers

But while I could deal with some stuff spite is probably so hard, the hardest of the lot. I’ve read about angry kids and frustrated kids but mean kids?

I remember "spite" was actually on one of the diagnostic checklists for my DC - not for a specific condition (as far as I know) but more a broad sign that something wasn't right and needed to be investigated. It is painful as a parent but young children sometimes don't have the skills or understanding to not be spiteful (if you see what I mean).

I’m afraid I don’t really … could you explain?

Try this book The incredible years. The link is for audiobook version but you can get the book from library or second hand

https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/The-Incredible-Years-Audiobook/B00XWX8QUS?source_code=PS1PP30DTRIAL451072523004K&&ipRedirectOverride=true&overrideBaseCountry=true&gclid=CjwKCAiAs6-sBhBmEiwA1Nl8s40HZkW3IIjS-nWPSUNbJQhgDusJDmd0KH1Mta4tuiRnpf_zeniyBxoCO3QQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Well, if you are very upset or angry and you are a young child, you do want to hurt someone but you don't really understand that you could really damage or injure them, or realises that they will carry on being hurt long after you have stopped feeling angry. Or maybe you don't quite understand that other people really do hurt as much as you do. Or you do kind of know these things but you're still too little to control yourself in the moment,

That kind of thing can lead to spitelful behaviour. Empathy and patience can develop late in some children. It doesn't mean that they will never develop, but they may take longer, and some children may need help to grow them fully.

The problem is, he isn’t upset or angry. It’s fine, he’s happy, enjoying himself. Then kicks someone in the face. It isn’t a loss of control when frustrated - I could understand that.