AIBU to think we NEED to repair society however we can

[Puffalicious]

I occasionally see posts from the local FB page- good to keep up with things happening etc. Recently there have been many posts with people helping each other for Christmas- signposting people looking to donate toys/ food etc, the odd person asking (very mixed area, big city, so wealthy folk mixed with people struggling & everything in between).

Yesterday a post grabbed me, an anonymous post looking for food to tide them over until 29th when paid. Seemed very genuine. They asked for a PM, which I did, along with a few others it seems. It was a young girl, pregnant who had no-one & no food. I usually give to the local food bank- had just Yesterday done a larger, Christmas donation whilst doing my shop- but she seemed outside the system, working with unexpected costs.

We exchanged a few messages & she said she wasn't fussy, eats most things & whatever I thought would be great. She wasn't askimg for anything else. I did a week's shop including items for breakfast, lunch & dinner & some treats, including plenty fresh fruit & veg, milk, bread, washing powder & shampoo. She said she had no plans for Xmas day, so I offered to plate up & drop off.

When I went to drop the food she met me at the door with a joint in her hand. She's 6 months pregnant. Unfortunately her hallway was full of filthy stuff & the stench that hit me was unbearable. We chatted a bit: she had lived there 4 years & had 5 other children- the eldest lives with the father, the other 4 with her mum. She would be at her mum's for Xmas, she 'never misses one', so did have someone cooking for Xmas. The father of her child is in a city hours away- she's just back from visiting & wants to distance herself.

I wished her a Merry Christmas & asked if she needed things for the baby- I gave her details of local places to contact if needed. She says she cannot work - another thing she was untruthful about, but she may have her reasons.

I know I can't save the world, & I'm pleased she has food, but I feel that I won't do this again? I'm not sure why I feel like this, but I think I'll stick to giving to the local food bank. I feel like I'm not judging, maybe I am in my own way?

Where has society got to where a 25 year old will have 6 children, 5 of which are not in her care & the 6th probably under social work watch? How can we fix this? I work in education & see ACES & trauma in the young people who come from such situations. Where are we going wrong? What can we do? She seemed pleasant & perhaps with half a chance she may have had a different path.

I'm wittering now.

YABU- Society is how it is, we can't change people.

YANBU- We need to try to change society for the sake of that unborn baby & many like it.

• woman not girl. Apologies.

I assume you contacted social services about it, just in case they don't know about this baby?

I haven't, no, it was just this afternoon. I hadn't thought of that, I should do after Xmas. I imagine she'll be picked up via the hospital at the least, but perhaps not, so I will do that. Thanks.

This is an unpopular opinion on Mumsnet, but i think the benefits system is to blame. Money is provided without any strings attached when kids are involved. People are rewarded for having 'needs' without any judgement regarding why they've ended up in that situation.

I'm not sure what the answer is. I certainly don't want children living on the streets or starving because their parents are lazy, feckless scum, but the wider impact of our judgment and consequence free system are huge.

Any attempts to tighten the system just result in screamed insults of 'evil uncaring scum', so i don't think anything will improve until things really break.

Thisoldthang I'm a dyed in the wool, old-fashioned socialist, so not sure about your point of view, but I do think things need to change in some way.

I need to get to the source of why she's become the way she is: how do we break the cycle of inter-generational trauma? So that the unborn baby doesn't end up here in 25 years?

I don't know the answer.

thats the pickle, how can society balance freewill and yet then want to create a more better and impoved society, one step could be restrictions on number of children, mandatory parenting classes etc to impove and educate.

its a difficult question op, and i think the whole of society would need redesigning to create a more better and improved civilization. @Puffalicious

The question you need to be asking is how has such a young woman ended up on her own with so many children? What happened to her? What has she suffered for that to have been an option for her?

That's exactly what I said- how can we break the cycle of intergenerational trauma?

Her eldest child lives with her father, at the very least.

It IS a pickle. Mandatory parenting classes sounds positive. Again it comes down to money for services.

I'm not sure why you think she might have suffered something, to make her end up with all those children and her current lifestyle. Maybe she's just low on intelligence and morals? She won't be the only one.

Or had a very poor example set for her? Or poor mental health. Why does having 6 children show she has low morals or intelligence per se?

You need a government who don't personally benefit from social immobility before anything will be fixed.

Speak to anyone who works with children and families and they will all say that Children's Centres / Sure Start had a massive impact on improving outcomes in small but meaningful ways. Any sensible government would have ploughed funding and resources into them...

'Society' has left people to rot.

Well, it doesn't exactly shout careful thought and high values, does it?

Op you may find the work of Thomas sowell interesting as he is an American conservative economist and social philosopher. I think his view is that this is how it is and all we can do is to try and improve things for people and basically just keep trying. All ages have tried to grapple with and solve the problem of the poor. From medieval alms houses to victorian workhouses. The lowest standard of living is now much higher than it would have been 40 years ago it is slowly getting better.

Yes definitely society needs repairs , and idiots like this mother are part of problem.

I have no idea how to fix things, but it is just so bloody sad that a young woman would have so many children effectively making her life and that of her children worse.

Because not all people are equal - on a societal level, there will be people who are significantly less capable at an intellectual level.

Classic socialism recognises this disconnect and assumes that those who are more able - be it physically, intellectually or financially - look after those who are not.

"All ages have tried to grapple with and solve the problem of the poor."

Yeah, everything apart from sharing the money out more fairly.

Honestly if you're a socialist OP you know that intergenerational trauma and other woo has sod all to do with it. Follow the money.

I agree with this, but I think society is failing in this respect. Too many people fall through the net and are left to flounder. I don't know what the answer is.

I think about this a lot. I don't think the answer is to withdraw the ease of benefits for people with children, as another poster alluded to. I think the opposite. It's deprivation that causes these issues. It's deprived areas where people are more likely to rely heavily on drugs and alcohol. I'd be willing to bet anything that this girl has come from a deprived background.
Young women from deprived areas have less options. They probably haven't had parents encouraging them to do well. Yes, lots of girls from those backgrounds will still do well and make good choices, but lots won't. They leave school with nothing. The local college courses don't offer them anything that is going to enable them to gain well paid employment. They don't have what it takes to live well independently.
The males don't have it any better either. Their future consists of zero hour contracts and agency work. Their future is bleak. Of course they turn to drugs and alcohol.
This is the society that has been created for them. People made of tougher stuff, can still get by and make the best of it. But a big portion of them aren't, through no fault of their own and they never had a hope. I've watched some of these kids grow up and never break the cycle.
I think investment is the only answer. Better childrens services. An excellent outreach programme with workers who actually engage with impoverished children and help keep them on the right path. And ultimately better employment opportunities at the end of all that. There was a time when people who weren't academic or skilled in other ways, could still get a shop in a factory working 40 hours a week and earn enough for their families to live a decent life. This is impossible now. It's no wonder that girls with no decent options, end up down that path. We need to make it better for the next generation.

Sterilise her?

I honestly don’t know if we can. I believe tendencies can be genetic, like addiction genes, some people are predisposed to impulsiveness, poor decisions, problems with consequential thinking. And as long as there are wrong turns to take there is a strong chance they will take them. It’s our human instinct to assume if we can just do X or Y, there is a solution to everything. But sadly there isn’t.

I can't believe how many posters are being so judgemental towards this woman. I would never had ended up in her situation...... because I was born into a middle class family with two loving, supportive parents.

We didn't have loads of spare cash (to holiday abroad etc), but never had to worry about where food or heating was coming from. My life has turned out well be because I was loved, clothed, fed and supported with my education. I doubt this woman had the same.

It is so depressing how some women can't recognise how privileged their childhood was, compared to some other women.

"Where has society got to where a 25 year old will have 6 children, 5 of which are not in her care & the 6th probably under social work watch?"

Well, the literal answer to your question is a combination of shame no longer being a key component of functioning societies, and I don't agree that our benefit system has anything to do with this as this woman is - according to the scenario outlined - not receiving any benefits for her children.

Like all systems there will be those that take, and those who were able to use the welfare system to remove themselves from abuse and lift themselves out of poverty.

I think it was lovely of you tot think of others, but if you're going to do that please don't play Lady Bountiful - give it, or don't , but don't use it a as an opportunity to peer inside someone else's live.

That's not you giving without return and you know it isn't.

Restrictions on number of children actually means either mandatory sterilisation or forced abortion though, at the end of the day. That's not a path we should go down.