To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

[ImTheGoat]

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

Of course you're right in everything you say.

There has become a thing where it's deemed worse to 'shame' someone than to actually put other people at risk. It's crazy but this is where we are.

The point of feminism is the liberation of the female sex class from structural oppression, not neo liberal individual choices which may or may not ultimately be considered beneficial to women. This is a very common misunderstanding. @YuleDragon

we going to ignore Greers book "The Female Eunuch" then?

"Greer sees women’s sexual liberation as a primary mode of altering these systems because sexual liberation entails liberation from the overall control of oppressive systems. By reclaiming their bodies and sexualities, women who can achieve sexual liberation can also reclaim their rightful place in society as equal to men by establishing themselves as the agents of their own lives.
This book is notable for its discussion of non-traditional and taboo topics. Greer openly discusses menstruation, sexual intercourse, masturbation, and sexual violence, never shying away from using expletives or offering graphic detail. She aims to normalize openly discussing women’s bodies and sexualities as a necessary step toward sexual liberation."
The Female Eunuch Summary and Study Guide | SuperSummary

sexual liberation entails liberation from the overall control of oppressive systems

Male violence is the primary method of enforcement of systems that oppress women (patriarchy).

A feminist critique of choking would suggest that women inviting male violence to be enacted upon them in the bedroom is not sexual liberation, rather further enslavement to it.

@YuleDragon My point is that your claim that “the whole point of feminism” is individual choice is simply incorrect. Individual choice is not the whole point of feminism. Feminists are not a monolith either, many disagree on some points but not on others. However, the central tent pole (I.e “the point”) of feminism is the liberation of the female sex class from structural oppression. This is a neutral observation.

I actually agree with the proposition that exposure to risk should be dealt with differently by the law. It’s a long-running debate among academic lawyers, i.e. whether certain forms of homicide offences’ definitions should be changed.

But I really do care that the law as it is shouldn’t be misrepresented. NON-FATAL STRANGULATION IS NOT ILLEGAL OF ITSELF. The offence is non-fatal, non-consensual strangulation - which always was illegal at common law.

Legal myths do no good. I see this a lot about rights on marriage, divorce and in respect of childcare, on other threads. It drives me mad. Get it right!

@ImTheGoat @stinkingbishop

Very informative posts.
Strangulation I have heard is extremely dangerous-
Men have died using asphyxia and self strangulation as well as women- The whole thing sounds very dangerous.

But I really do care that the law as it is shouldn’t be misrepresented. NON-FATAL STRANGULATION IS NOT ILLEGAL OF ITSELF. The offence is non-fatal, non-consensual strangulation - which always was illegal at common law

I'm sure you know that since last year, NFS has been codified as an offence in legislation. It's now a specific offence under the Domestic Abuse Act.

There is a weird provision for a defence of consent if the harm is no more than 'transient and trifling'.

And common law is inconsistent as to whether BDSM crosses that threshold or not. But follows precedence from ABH case law.

So it's not a perfect instrument.

This is a helpful article which expands on the new legislation and the Court of Appeal case this year:

https://www.counselmagazine.co.uk/articles/non-fatal-strangulation-one-year-on-why-it-matters

Thank you. Yes, that is a very helpful article. The value and role of expert evidence in proceedings under the provision is especially interesting.

But so far as the law goes, it confirms the defence of consent. If consent is uncontested, a charge doesn’t get off the ground.

Then the law needs to go quite a way further then clearly. It should be an offence even with consent because it is not possible to consent to.

I mean theres literally people on this thread who do consent but oh no let's police what others want to do in bed

Greer is a radical feminist. Perhaps understanding her in context instead of cherry picking quotes and reframing them would be a good start.

But clearly that’s what the pro-strangulation women have done through this entire thread - displayed wilful ignorance of the cultural systemic impact of violence against women and girls - ANY women and girls.

I feel sorry for you, honestly, in the same way I feel sorry for women in prostitution who have had to buy in to their own oppression to feel that they have any worth. It’s false bravado, a finely strung up set of delusions to maintain the idea of empowerment. And I get it, I do, it’s terrible and eye opening when you finally understand how little power women have and how much men as a class hate us.

Thats Greer too, by the way.

I’m not sure they are… I think women are generally intelligent enough to realise that being choked is dangerous.

If they are then public education on the dangers is needed…

but not from the position of ‘this is bad because some men murder women and use this as an excuse afterwards. If you do it you are normalising it and making it ok for that to happen- you need to stop doing a thing you enjoy because some men are bad and you are making it easier for them’ which seems to be the thinking of many on here.

A simple- “this thing is very dangerous for xyz reasons- be extremely careful if you do it”

Oh god you still batting on about this ?
Typical MN trying to force your view down the throats of others ( be careful not to choke them ! 🤣)

@Densol57 🤢

Apologies @Densol57 I meant to 🤣

had to buy in to their own oppression to feel that they have any worth.

You could say the same about any woman in a straight relationship.

Only if you’re stupid.

none of your examples is it likely that a violent man could deliberately leave you brain damaged or even dead

@Emotionalsupportviper you don’t know what a belay is then

Where have I said it’s worse to shame someone than put people at risk?

What I’ve said is that men attacking women is always and only men’s responsibility.

We shouldn’t be having a discussion around keeping women safe which is focused on telling women they should change so that men might kill fewer of us- it should be entirely about educating women about the risks inherent in these ‘sex acts’, and how best to stop men being murderous wankers.

Im being facetious obviously.

Although if you all stopped shagging men at all then they would have far fewer opportunities for murdering women through ‘sexual asphyxiation’!

but again- it’s not women’s responsibility to change to make men be better.

I think it might be past your bedtime.

Don’t worry, I’ve been in bed for the last two hours.

Remember this story? It popped up in the BBC News app today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-67657474

Grace's family had to sit in court listening to her murderer use the 'rough sex defence'. It failed and her mother campaigned to change the law here.

No man or woman should ever be able to use this as a defence anywhere in the world. If that means people need to get off without being strangled, beaten, whatever then so be it. We're a pretty imaginative species.