To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

[ImTheGoat]

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

The op doesn’t specify circulation being cut off or anything else. The phrase used is ‘choking’, and while that will have a specific dictionary definition, its use in the general vernacular varies.

I don’t think retrospectively applying specific actions invalidates anyone’s input.

Yes, it’s the men that are hurting women, so why should women who enjoy this activity be held responsible and made to pretend they don’t, or stop doing it, because some men hurt people? The responsibility not to murder women lies with the men- it’s not on the women to alter their behaviour (beyond what is sensible), it’s on the men.

They are free to do whatever they want, but if risky behaviour is being normalised, people are going to point to the problems with it. I don't care what you personally do. The AIBU is just that women (or anyone trusting someone to put their hands around their neck and squeeze) should be aware of the risks. There is an expert below who has laid out the health risks. This is important.

Why is the answer to that to ban everyone from clocking during sex?
That's a UK justice system problem and it's not just related to this one issue. Someone around here sold hard drugs (heroin and crack) and didn't even get a year in prison.
If someone is killed the killer should be charged with murder, the answer is not to completely Ban anyone from having a hand round their neck in sex

@Trytheweebabyquiche The OP refers to "knock yourself out" and links to an article on asphyxiation during sex. She is clearly talking about the neck being compressed to the point of losing consciousness, which by definition means airflow is being cut off. I'll grant you that the OP didn't explicitly refer to blood flow being cut off, but it's one or the other or both that causes people to lose consciousness. People trying to parse this issue instead of being real about the risks is minimizing the risks of what the courts and the legislature and society at large have identified as incredibly dangerous. People have died, suffered brain damage, stroke and psychological effects from attempting this.

@Sleepydoor if that’s your interpretation then fine. I’ve clarified my reasoning, and my points. I really don’t care whether you feel I’m “allowed” to have an input or not.

Ultimately the purpose of this thread has been lost because of the few with self absorbed attitudes.

@skysecret I agree with you completely on your last point.

People use ‘knock yourself out’ all the time, not to mean to literally make yourself unconscious (I don’t like people eating in the theatre, but if you think it’s ok knock yourself out- we will all just think you’re a twat). It doesn’t mean to actually make yourself unconscious.

Added to which, it wouldn’t strengthen your point if it did mean that, since a) to be knocked out generally refers to a blow to the head or rarely to having anaesthesia administered and b) it would refer to cutting your own blood supply off, not a man doing it to a woman.

People are harmed by all sorts of things- the answer isn’t to attempt to make it women’s responsibility. If men murder women in any situation then it is solely their responsibility.

If you had bothered to read my post you would have realised that I’m a dyke- I don’t do anything sexual with men, choking or otherwise.

The ‘normalising’ as you put it comes from the media, films, and mostly porn. Some music and some literature.

The vast majority of which is created by men.

What individual women do in their bedrooms, don’t film, share or otherwise broadcast doesn’t normalise anything to a wider audience, because no one knows.

So your argument is what, that male produced media normalising something is women’s responsibility?

Or women must never do anything in their bedroom with a man in case he can’t tell the difference between ‘fun’ and ‘murder’ and thinks it’s ok to kill the next woman he shags?

How much of men’s shit behaviour are you prepared to take responsibility for? Because personally I’m not taking any.

@Trytheweebabyquiche So you're just ignoring the link in the OP to the article on asphyxiation and trying to pretend the OP wasn't talking about sex during asphyxiation when she's talking about choking during sex and knocking yourself out. I don't understand the posters that are trying to talk in circles to try and minimize the seriousness of this. No one who is talking about how dangerous this is is talking about someone placing their hand on another person's throat with no pressure. We're not talking about pretending to strangle someone while not actually restricting airflow. So why all the strawman arguments in favour?

Men are getting away with trivial sentences of a few years. See the link to We Can’t Consent To This in the OP.

Anyone unnecessarily carrying out a potentially lethal act should be charged with murder if it does lead to death. ’Playing games’ is not a good enough reason for endangering someone’s life. The present law is out of date.

And about passing out during sex - if your (almost certainly male) partner carries on having sex with you when you're unconscious and therefore no longer consenting, well, there's a name for that.

Passing out is not a sign of being in good health. Also, if you're unconscious, by definition you're not getting any kind of sexual thrills at all. This is all just power play, men and women who are aroused by the idea of hurting women/being hurt, because that's what porn has brainwashed them into believing sex and even love is all about. No wonder there are so many women on MN with men who don't respect them - porn has taught men that women are just sexual playthings without real feelings, who actively enjoy being hurt, and women are unconsciously playing along. That's not to victim blame in the slightest as this stuff is insidious, like any kind of social conditioning.

I don’t click on links people post, they could be anything. There is plenty of information on this subject out there- the op hasn’t found the one and only article.

My point is that the op wasn’t explicit in her post (many people don’t open unknown links so if a particular article is prescient to the op it’s a good idea to provide a summary that makes it clear what you are referring to).

Terming something as choking leaves it open to several interpretations, not just yours.

I haven’t said I’m for it, nor have I made any comment on its safety. What I have done is challenge your policing of comments based on what you think the op says.

No hand should ever be around the neck

That's ridiculous. There are plenty of people (women and men) who don't want to be choked/strangled but do enjoy a firm hand on the neck. The latter is not dangerous at all. Who are you to say where people should or should not "ever" put their hands during sex?

I don’t understand your point, Quiche.

Women aren’t responsible for men’s shit behaviour. They find ways to injure or kill us without any help from us.

Young women have been groomed, by pornography and men’s ever-increasing demands, to accept levels of abuse that were unheard of 20 or 30 years ago.

Anyone who thinks being strangled is fun is taking two major risks: of suffering accidental brain damage and of the other person going ahead and killing them. Warning women to protect themselves is not an attempt to limit ‘fun’.

Thats the paradox, isn't it.

Women want men to pretend to be violent towards them for sexual gratification. Yet if a man gets sexual gratification from enacting violence against a woman, that is massive red flag against him.

One wonders whether if men were never violent to women, would women ever ask them to pretend to be?

The sheer irony of the posts on here telling people not to let men dictate what they enjoy in the bedroom... whilst simultaneously trying to dictate the same 🙄

Why is the answer to that to ban everyone from clocking during sex?

Where are you getting that from?

No one is proposing banning it. How on earth would that even be enforced?

The two main points are:

1. Choking and strangulation during sex is potentially lethal and it's dangerous to pretend otherwise. People engaging in the act should at least be honest with themselves about that. And if they choose to talk about it publicly, do so in the context of safety, not minimise the danger. It's been normalised by porn and TikTok as a harmless kink, but it can and has killed women.
2. It should be legally impossible to consent to strangulation under any circumstances. Therefore no defence of consent could be put forward in the event that a woman is killed by strangulation during sex in order to reduce a murder charge to manslaughter. Men who engage in this act should do so on the understanding that if it goes wrong, they face a life sentence.

How do you feel about me going horse riding? Or skiing? Or open water swimming? What about me crossing the road? Driving 100 miles? Being a passenger in someone else’s car where I’m not the one in control? Going climbing and relying on a belay? Where does it end?

In none of your examples is it likely that a violent man could deliberately leave you brain damaged or even dead, and claim that that was because you liked a particular form of sex play, and walk away from his brutal actions.

Strangulation - and many other forms of sadistic sexual activity - allows just that.

I agree with you entirely, it’s dangerous and in many cases reckless. I would never choose to allow a man to do it to me.

My point is just that I’m not all women, and while making sure the information that it’s dangerous and no one should feel pressured into doing it etc, is very important- that can be done in a way that doesn’t centre women as being responsible.

We shouldn’t be talking about what women enjoy sexually as if it’s wrong or abhorrent- it isn’t. It’s dangerous for the morally neutral reason that it cuts off oxygen to the brain.

Socially It’s dangerous because men can’t be trusted (I’m using the royal Men there). Men are the issue, not what women enjoy sexually.

Women should be able to choose to do something that they feel can be done safely without being made to feel responsible for men abusing their trust.

Unless we raise it to the level of say, driving without a seatbelt (although sometimes that’s ok), or free climbing buildings and say “that is inherently too dangerous to allow anyone to do it under any circumstance”… but that would be impossible to police.

Women should be able to choose to do something that they feel can be done safely

The crux of the issue for me is that it is not something that can ever be done safely. That should be the starting point from which women make a choice.

The minimising language around the practice is creating a myth that there's a safe way to be strangled by a man and there just isn't. It's not 'policing' anyone to state that fact.

Have you read the original thread that inspired this one? Plenty of people were proposing making checking illegal. I believe someone has already posted the link to that thread on one of the first pages of this one

*choking. Damn autocorrect

As others have pointed out it is massively ironic to suggest that women don’t allow men to dictate what they want in the bedroom but instead allow other women to do so.

Someone also said that we need to bring up all girls to not be submissive and I have a few problems with that. Firstly it is not inherently submissive to be the person on the receiving end of any sensation during sexual relations. Within BDSM one can be dominant and order your submissive to inflict strong sensations upon you.

Secondly I believe that some people including myself have a strong inclination to be sexually submissive. With me this started in childhood and was not related to any trauma. It was definitely not related to internet porn as I grew up in the 1980s. I’m only interested in sex if it involves the elements that I enjoy. Yes this can make things risky but I am prepared for and take steps to mitigate the risks. The alternative is not having sex at all and I don’t see why I should do this.

Even vanilla sex can carry risks. Where it could lead to pregnancy this puts the woman at risk of injury or death for example.

I don’t think that you can ever stop people from taking these kinds of risks in sex. What kink shaming does is drive people to be secretive. It may also reduce people’s access to good quality information about minimising risks. If women like myself were able to be honest and open about sexual activities this might make things safer. I would like to be able to openly record what I would give a partner permission to do but at the moment this could leave both of us in legal hot water.

@FemaleKerrAvon perfectly put 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Non-fatal strangulation is already illegal.

The problem is that there are women subjecting themselves to it under the false premise that it's harmless.