Page 18 | To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

ImTheGoat · 2023-12-21T11:24:48+00:00

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting [[https://wecantconsenttothis.uk https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/]] My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it [[https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation]] I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

MRSMTO · 21/12/2023 19:19

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I recommend that you understand that I am quite capable of reaching a decision about my sex life, my safety and my choices without someone on the internet trying to tell me otherwise. I am capable. I have sex to cum. Sex does not equate love to me. It just doesn't. Not because of past trauma or a need to be hurt. But because that is what I prefer. I understand that you would not chose that, that for you it isn't an enjoyable pursuit but please allow me, as a grown adult with her full faculties to do the same.

stinkingbishop · 21/12/2023 19:23

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 21/12/2023 18:31

The Act (using the DAA section numbering) allows for consent (s.75A(2)) but consent does not apply where serious harm has been caused (s.75A(3)). Intent or recklessness must be shown, but both depend on a finding of serious harm - see “and” at the end of s.75A(3)).

Non-consensual, non-fatal strangulation is an offence (always was). Consensual non-fatal strangulation requires serious harm and intent or recklessness as to serious harm - also always an offence, but (very sensibly codified and clarified).

What is the Court of Appeal case?

Show quote history

April this year, R vs Cook. Important and useful. Appeal against custodial sentence dismissed.

From the judgement: "There is no requirement to prove any injury or harm as a result of the strangulation so long as it is intentional...There is real harm inherent in the act of strangulation."

Original poster

ImTheGoat · 21/12/2023 19:24

stinkingbishop · 21/12/2023 17:42

Disclaimer, have only read half the thread and want to jump in now as don't have time to read further.

As a doctor, academic researcher, and someone involved in this area, just a few rather important things to clear up.

Choking is when there is an internal obstruction of the airway, like with food. This thread is about strangulation. It's important to use the right words. I worry that 'choking' as used in this context minimises the act.
There is no safe way to strangle. There is a lot of potentially fatal misinformation on the internet, including in BDSM communities, which advises avoiding the windpipe and pressing down either side. This is where the carotid arteries are, and also the jugular. Obstruction of these vital bits of plumbing can cause brain damage in seconds, and with minimal pressure (less than opening a ringpull can). Tears to the carotid arteries due to that pressure can also lead to delayed stroke when clots become dislodged. This can happen days/weeks after the event, so often the dots are not joined. There is growing evidence that strangulation may actually be the second most common cause of stroke in women under 40.
Similarly, use of safe words and gestures is unreliable. In the notorious Red Wing studies in the 1940s, prisoners and psychiatric inpatients were fitted with mechanical strangulation cuffs, all of which had a release button. Not a single one pressed the button before losing consciousness. They talked about forgetting they could do it, or wanting to but not being able to do it. This is due to hypoxia (lack of oxygenated blood to the brain) resulting in loss of function in the hippocampus (memory area) and frontal lobes, leading to dyspraxia (difficulty with voluntary movement).
Non-fatal strangulation (which is what this is) is now illegal, following the 2021 Domestic Abuse Act, carrying with it a custodial sentence. Consent to rough sex is not a defence, and this is now written into statute. This change happened because the inherent danger of the act, regardless of context, has been recognised.
Whilst, in general, I completely agree that each to their own, privacy of the bedroom etc etc...I don't think people are fully informed who are partaking in this (see above). I also worry, as other posters have said, about the growing normalisation of the act. The majority of women under 24 will now have been strangled during sex. So 'normal' is it that it is happening in people's first sexual encounter, as young as 12, and sometimes even before sex as part of heavy petting. Although most people do it with a regular partner, 1/5 in a recent study reported doing it with someone they had met that day, ie casual sex. There have been recent brain imaging studies looking at students who are regularly strangled vs those who aren't, which showed brain changes, including in the frontal lobes, which don't mature until our mid 20s. This has the potential to alter brain development. Another study showed a significant association between being regularly strangled during sex and mental health, with those who had done it >5 times twice as likely to have depression and anxiety.

Excellent post that bears repeating from someone who clearly does know what she's talking about (unlike the aficionados and apologists who just claim to know). There is no safe way to strangle....Safe words are unreliable.

OP posts:

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 21/12/2023 19:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 18:06

Consent to rough sex has never been a defence and isn’t now.

You are again being pedantic about the wording. In the press and in Parliament "the rough sex defence" is characterised as being a situation where a man kills a woman through a violent act, usually strangulation, and claims it was consensual. You are completely missing the point. I get that you don't agree that courts don't always make the best decision. The offence was added to the Domestic Abuse bill based on the campaigning and lobbying of feminists, like the Centre for Women's Justice and We Can't Consent to This, a campaign group that started out here on Mumsnet.

I don’t get why you keep saying this. It’s not a defence. And the law hasn’t changed at all in relation to fatal cases. A defendant in any type of homicide case can give evidence. Why wouldn’t they be able to? It’s not pedantry, it’s how the law works.

If you want to stop murder defendants giving their account you’ll need to overturn a couple of hundred years of legal procedure.

The law has changed in relation to non-fatal cases, but it’s essentially a - very welcome - clarification of existing law.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 19:34

I don’t get why you keep saying this. It’s not a defence.

Because you keep missing the point. In common usage people refer to it as "the rough sex defence" or the "50 shades of grey defence". Your pedantry is stopping you engaging with the central issue, which you don't agree with.

That's fine, but please stop with the semantic nitpicking of whether people use the term "defence", when what we are referring to is a claim made by a man in his defence in a trial where it is accepted as fact that he indeed killed a woman by violence, but where he is claiming it was because he strangled her with her consent and oops, it went wrong and he killed her.

CherryJones1 · 21/12/2023 19:34

Women don't like it. They just think they do because, well, menz and porn

And I've said that before and I stand by it. The lengths some women will go to - literally being strangled - to please men is astonishing

And sad.

Comedycook · 21/12/2023 19:36

CherryJones1 · 21/12/2023 19:34

Women don't like it. They just think they do because, well, menz and porn

And I've said that before and I stand by it. The lengths some women will go to - literally being strangled - to please men is astonishing

And sad.

Agree. I find it absolutely pathetic and tragic.

InAMess2023 · 21/12/2023 19:39

@CherryJones1 oh here's another one... yet I bet you can't see the clear irony of YOU trying to tell us what WE think and why...

It's utterly fucking rude to keep trying to tell people who know their own mind what they do and don't like and why.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia nice to see you've brought that patronising and condescending attitude over here (that you don't have apparently)

Eekmystro · 21/12/2023 19:43

I don’t get it but even more so I don’t get the people who want to choke others. I’m on the fence about about other people doing it. I’m sure a small number of people doing it enjoy it and I suppose that’s up to them. However I think a lot of people get pressured into it that don’t enjoy it. I think “kinks” are overrated and if I’m honest I think some people make them up to be quirky.

Comedycook · 21/12/2023 19:44

Even if someone does genuinely like it, my view is that if you need a safe word so that you're not killed during sex...then i think thats totally fucked up.

CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau · 21/12/2023 19:44

The thing is, lots of dangerous activities come with piles of risk warnings. Extreme sports often require training, specialist equipment. Drugs and alcohol are warned against at school and subject to public information campaigns. The OP wasn’t saying nobody is ALLOWED to choke or be choked, but that there’s a lack of awareness. On my law course there were a couple of absolutely insane cases about BDSM practices but when I read them I thought actually, fair’s fair if they want to insert a fishhook into their penis and enjoy it. But there is even education out there on the risks of totally vanilla unprotected sex (STIs, pregnancy). To be honest, if you spend an hour in a classroom hearing about the risks of strangulation and then want to do it anyway, knock yourself out - literally. But if you only ever see porn - my boyfriend started watching it at twelve and said he was one of the late starters at his school - portraying it is safe and sexy you’re probably going to think it’s just that, and worse, you might be a young girl thinking you have to do that to get men to like you (or the other way round). I have never watched porn but from reading sex scenes in books I got the idea that I had to do certain sex acts to keep my boyfriend with me, and I hated them.

YeahIsaidit · 21/12/2023 19:49

Comedycook · 21/12/2023 19:44

Even if someone does genuinely like it, my view is that if you need a safe word so that you're not killed during sex...then i think thats totally fucked up.

I've said this a few times now. A safe word isn't to stop you being killed ffs, it's to stop whatever is going on, immediately, for any reason. Sure it could be because you no longer feel safe (in which case I'd question why you'd be having sex with that person to begin with) or it could be because the position you're in is uncomfortable, you've got a cramp, you need to pee....

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 19:53

Where are the clips on giving your female partner super skilled oral sex? Or wonderful new finger techniques to make your partner come in a whole new way?

@Bambooshoot he does that too. Anything I want.

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 19:56

And this person went on to say in a later post that her partner pressed a little too hard and she ended up seeing stars. What that means is that she was on the brink of blacking out and could have experienced brain damage as a result.

@Ramalangadingdong no it doesn’t. This was my experience, not yours. Don’t change it to fit your own narrative. Even if I HAD lost consciousness, which I didn’t because I told him to stop and he did, I wouldn’t have got brain damage. That would take minutes of him holding that lock on after I’d passed out.

category12 · 21/12/2023 19:57

YeahIsaidit · 21/12/2023 19:49

I've said this a few times now. A safe word isn't to stop you being killed ffs, it's to stop whatever is going on, immediately, for any reason. Sure it could be because you no longer feel safe (in which case I'd question why you'd be having sex with that person to begin with) or it could be because the position you're in is uncomfortable, you've got a cramp, you need to pee....

Show quote history

Unless you're doing d/s roleplay, you don't need a safe word for that kind of thing, you just say "I need to pee"/"I need to change position".

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 20:00

Catza · 21/12/2023 15:34

Thank you for asking the question. There is a hierarchy of safety signs. Yellow signs "I am getting to my limit" and red signs "Stop immediately". So, at least in theory, the person is able to give a warning sign well before they get to the point where their brain is deprived of oxygen.
I would hazard a guess that most accidents happen in circumstances where partners don't know each other and/or don't put signals in place. Personally, I would never engage in risky practices with someone I didn't know and didn't trust. The dominant partner would also never engage in risky play with someone who didn't know their own limits. That's just basic safety which some people, unfortunately, neglect (thinking of men paying for a sex worker to asphyxiate them, for example).

Show quote history

Thank you for offering an answer to this.

So, at least in theory

And there’s the problem unfortunately. Things go wrong despite this theory and it results in men killing women usually.

VikingLady · 21/12/2023 20:00

WhenWereYouUnderMe · 21/12/2023 11:38

I mean, it's not something I'm interested in, but if you partake in choking surely the risks are incredibly fucking obvious? Not sure how you could have someone wrap their hands around your throat and not understand the risk.

Honestly, no. I've a friend who said she likes it. I mentioned the risks and she had no fucking clue - as far as she knew, the only risk was death during the act. No idea about long term damage at all. None.

Fecking idiot.

She knows now.

Original poster

ImTheGoat · 21/12/2023 20:02

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 19:56

And this person went on to say in a later post that her partner pressed a little too hard and she ended up seeing stars. What that means is that she was on the brink of blacking out and could have experienced brain damage as a result.

@Ramalangadingdong no it doesn’t. This was my experience, not yours. Don’t change it to fit your own narrative. Even if I HAD lost consciousness, which I didn’t because I told him to stop and he did, I wouldn’t have got brain damage. That would take minutes of him holding that lock on after I’d passed out.

The thing is though that's just not correct about it taking minutes to die. Choking a partner even lightly for more than 4 seconds can cause permanent brain damage or death. That's not anyone being mean or prudish or judgemental, it's just a medical fact.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/as-you-like-it/202309/why-you-should-never-choke-a-partner-during-sex

Why You Should Never Choke a Partner During Sex

The kind of choking common in porn is as dangerous as a police chokehold.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/as-you-like-it/202309/why-you-should-never-choke-a-partner-during-sex

OP posts:

YeahIsaidit · 21/12/2023 20:02

category12 · 21/12/2023 19:57

Unless you're doing d/s roleplay, you don't need a safe word for that kind of thing, you just say "I need to pee"/"I need to change position".

Show quote history

I know I was just trying to explain that a safe word isn't a "please don't kill me!"

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 20:06

YeahIsaidit · 21/12/2023 16:15

But nobody has said that anyone is wrong to enjoy "vanilla" sex exclusively and that having no interest in BDSM is wrong. People are being told they're wrong for what they enjoy or that they're just pandering to a man's wants and are being judged for it

Show quote history

But you wrote:

If you're doing things correctly nothing should be unsafe, it's about communication and knowing what you're doing, on both sides. But you're clearly in the lay there for a couple of thumps, have a quick cuddle and roll off camp and cannot see that things beyond missionary and maybe the odd round of doggy style might actually be pleasurable for people and I have a lot to be getting on with so I'm going to leave you to your judgmental views and boring screws. Bye

Do you think people are “boring” if not wrong, for enjoying “vanilla” sex?

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 20:10

@ImTheGoat so why is it not banned in KO sports then? Why are they not all brain damaged? Some probably are by now, sure. But one instance of not even passing out which has then never been repeated, with all other instances not even fully obstructing my breath, and never obstructing my arteries again is not dangerous to me. I’m at more risk when I cross the street. There may be the odd unfortunate exception but seconds of reduced oxygen won’t kill your brain.

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 20:14

stinkingbishop · 21/12/2023 17:42

Disclaimer, have only read half the thread and want to jump in now as don't have time to read further.

As a doctor, academic researcher, and someone involved in this area, just a few rather important things to clear up.

Choking is when there is an internal obstruction of the airway, like with food. This thread is about strangulation. It's important to use the right words. I worry that 'choking' as used in this context minimises the act.
There is no safe way to strangle. There is a lot of potentially fatal misinformation on the internet, including in BDSM communities, which advises avoiding the windpipe and pressing down either side. This is where the carotid arteries are, and also the jugular. Obstruction of these vital bits of plumbing can cause brain damage in seconds, and with minimal pressure (less than opening a ringpull can). Tears to the carotid arteries due to that pressure can also lead to delayed stroke when clots become dislodged. This can happen days/weeks after the event, so often the dots are not joined. There is growing evidence that strangulation may actually be the second most common cause of stroke in women under 40.
Similarly, use of safe words and gestures is unreliable. In the notorious Red Wing studies in the 1940s, prisoners and psychiatric inpatients were fitted with mechanical strangulation cuffs, all of which had a release button. Not a single one pressed the button before losing consciousness. They talked about forgetting they could do it, or wanting to but not being able to do it. This is due to hypoxia (lack of oxygenated blood to the brain) resulting in loss of function in the hippocampus (memory area) and frontal lobes, leading to dyspraxia (difficulty with voluntary movement).
Non-fatal strangulation (which is what this is) is now illegal, following the 2021 Domestic Abuse Act, carrying with it a custodial sentence. Consent to rough sex is not a defence, and this is now written into statute. This change happened because the inherent danger of the act, regardless of context, has been recognised.
Whilst, in general, I completely agree that each to their own, privacy of the bedroom etc etc...I don't think people are fully informed who are partaking in this (see above). I also worry, as other posters have said, about the growing normalisation of the act. The majority of women under 24 will now have been strangled during sex. So 'normal' is it that it is happening in people's first sexual encounter, as young as 12, and sometimes even before sex as part of heavy petting. Although most people do it with a regular partner, 1/5 in a recent study reported doing it with someone they had met that day, ie casual sex. There have been recent brain imaging studies looking at students who are regularly strangled vs those who aren't, which showed brain changes, including in the frontal lobes, which don't mature until our mid 20s. This has the potential to alter brain development. Another study showed a significant association between being regularly strangled during sex and mental health, with those who had done it >5 times twice as likely to have depression and anxiety.

Thank you for your post, particularly this part:

Similarly, use of safe words and gestures is unreliable. In the notorious Red Wing studies in the 1940s, prisoners and psychiatric inpatients were fitted with mechanical strangulation cuffs, all of which had a release button. Not a single one pressed the button before losing consciousness. They talked about forgetting they could do it, or wanting to but not being able to do it. This is due to hypoxia (lack of oxygenated blood to the brain) resulting in loss of function in the hippocampus (memory area) and frontal lobes, leading to dyspraxia (difficulty with voluntary movement).

This is my concern from the first page of the thread and it’s worrying that those posters who partake in it have either claimed this wouldn’t be an issue, admitted they don’t have an answer to this problem, or completely failed to acknowledge this risk.

Original poster

ImTheGoat · 21/12/2023 20:16

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 20:10

@ImTheGoat so why is it not banned in KO sports then? Why are they not all brain damaged? Some probably are by now, sure. But one instance of not even passing out which has then never been repeated, with all other instances not even fully obstructing my breath, and never obstructing my arteries again is not dangerous to me. I’m at more risk when I cross the street. There may be the odd unfortunate exception but seconds of reduced oxygen won’t kill your brain.

Choking is banned in Olympic wrestling due to the fact it's very dangerous https://oneshotmma.com/can-you-choke-slam-punch-or-trip-in-wrestling/

Can You Choke, Slam, Punch, or Trip in Wrestling? | oneshotmma

There are many rules in Olympic-style wrestling, but wrestling allows more moves than many other disciplines. In fact, wrestling often encourages combustible, innovative moves. This…

https://oneshotmma.com/can-you-choke-slam-punch-or-trip-in-wrestling

OP posts:

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 20:24

@ImTheGoat That’s one sport. I didn’t say why isn’t it banned in Olympic wrestling, I said why isn’t it banned full stop. In all of those type of contact sports.

Either way, it’s still irrelevant to my story. I decided I didn’t want to be fully choked out and he respected that. When I felt it was a bit tight and he hadn’t realised I told him to stop and he did. We haven’t repeated that because it didn’t work for us. He wasn’t actually doing it during sex he was telling me about it. During sex it’s just occasional hand on neck and I can always breathe through it.

So as I say, I keep myself safe, I trust him completely, it was always my choice and not something he asked or made me do, we’ve had role reversal on this and often we don’t do anything like that at all - just regular sex.

But isn’t for me or you or anyone else to tell others what they like or what they choose to do.

thedankness · 21/12/2023 20:26

At the end of the day I think if you trust a man who happily strangles you during sex or otherwise, you are a fool.