To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

[ImTheGoat]

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

I don't think this is about shaming anyone. The truth is that strangulation is dangerous. It's now become far more common and mainstream, popularised by porn and I guess just a more sexually open culture. It's not wild to think that there will now be more people trying it, who might not be as informed as women who would practice this before it was so mainstream.

In general, sexual preferences are not formed in isolation. If we see a pattern emerge where sexual preferences increasingly invovle real or symbolic violence towards women, it's a good thing to ask why. We might want to resits the popularisiation of a practice that contributes to male licences to harm women, in any context, and even it amounts to a good time.

If a woman dies due to (supposedly) 'consensual strangulation', then I'm included to think the partner should still be convicted of murder. Regardless of what he claims she consented to.

The point is that if a man kills a woman via "rough sex gone wrong" as he claims she's not there to bear witness to how consensual or otherwise it was. He has killed her with violence, there is no doubt of that but he claims she consented. I don't think it should be available as a defence, that's what some people here are saying.

Agree to a point.

But actually people often do stop doing things they love because it causes harm to others. Eating meat, wearing fur, buying ivory, taking coke, buying new fast fashion.

The issue with choking is not just the actual risk for the woman (of course it's always the woman) during the act. It's also that you're playing along with a misogynist act, therefore bolstering a man's misogynist attitude, and you're doing the very act that is also used by men to actually kill women. If misogyny didn't exist, if men didn't kill women, the conversation would be more akin to "should I ride a motorbike/ smoke a fag etc"

I agree. But that’s not the same as consenting to any form of battery being illegal.

Personally, I think the law is set about right.

My bugbear - and I absolutely don’t aim this at you - is that legal folklore is thrown around to persuade people that their choices - whether about sex, marriage, childcare, housing, whatever - are actively illegal or that they have rights when in fact they don’t.

This discussion reminds me of all the ways that catering to men's fantasies makes the world unsafe for women generally. We need to stop trying to normalize dangerous behaviour.

Same here

It’s not a defence. It’s an argument on the facts.

Almost always the medical report of the damage done will convict or acquit for murder. Which leaves manslaughter.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying Yes, sorry, I shouldn't have said you can't consent to assault, when I meant you can't consent to serious harm. The truth is that women don't get to enjoy the rights they do have, such as freedom from being sexually assaulted, because so often they are not believed. So I think it's important to note that the law is that you can't consent to being strangled if it causes serious harm -- not that you only can't consent to being strangled to death.

@Zoreos "It’s up to the individual."

I'm so tired of hearing this idea repeated over and over on here, usually followed by 'it's no one else's business.'

Almost nothing is truly 'up to the individual' - including this, which is a trend popularized by porn and the spread of S&M culture. Do you think women all individually chose to start wearing corsets in the 16th century? Or getting plastic surgery and injectables in the 21st? Do it if it gets you off but don't pretend you're not just another mindless domino in a society which is affected by the normalisation of this stuff .

I’m not sure I understand the last bit. You can’t consent to being killed. That’s not a thing, to be unlegal about it.

The question in murder charge cases of this sort is intent - otherwise manslaughter (the greater includes the lesser). The questions in cases of non-fatal strangulation cases are consent and harm.

@autumn1610 I acknowledge there is a difference between my experience and a situation where consent is sought and it is discussed beforehand.

However I still don't think it's right. If my partner asked me to cause them pain for their pleasure I couldn't do it. My relationship is based on the desire to do them no harm. I would also question why they wanted it, what they were being influenced by, their previous sexual experiences and their psychological health. To agree to harm your partner you must either overlook these things or more disturbingly, enjoy inflicting a level of pain or exerting dominance over your partner.

You edited while I was typing. Ignore my last post.

The issue with choking is not just the actual risk for the woman (of course it's always the woman) during the act. It's also that you're playing along with a misogynist act, therefore bolstering a man's misogynist attitude, and you're doing the very act that is also used by men to actually kill women

This puts it well.

And the posts from others where men have objected to being 'kink shamed' or baffled as to why a woman did not like him starting to choke her, alongside the posts from 'kink' fans has really helped to shape my understanding of how all this works to undermine women.

Because the men who are called out on strangling women then have their position reaffirmed by other women who reassure them that the women who did not like this are just 'boring' and 'vanilla' (and therefore it is their fault they did not like it), rather than it is just normal and good that women should dislike the aggressive, dominating and ultimately violent act of being strangled by their sexual partner.

Thank you for asking the question. There is a hierarchy of safety signs. Yellow signs "I am getting to my limit" and red signs "Stop immediately". So, at least in theory, the person is able to give a warning sign well before they get to the point where their brain is deprived of oxygen.
I would hazard a guess that most accidents happen in circumstances where partners don't know each other and/or don't put signals in place. Personally, I would never engage in risky practices with someone I didn't know and didn't trust. The dominant partner would also never engage in risky play with someone who didn't know their own limits. That's just basic safety which some people, unfortunately, neglect (thinking of men paying for a sex worker to asphyxiate them, for example).

It’s not a defence. It’s an argument on the facts.

It is a kind of defence in that it is an obvious argument men who kill women during sex can make. Via their defence barrister. I believe it shouldn't be possible to use that to either get a lower sentence or get away with killing someone entirely. As I said, I favour criminalising strangulation as a dangerous practice which not infrequently results in death or serious harm. If people want to take the risk on both sides, that's up to them.

To me it’s a rule like “don’t point a gun at anyone even if you think it’s not loaded” or “don’t step in the circus tiger enclosure”. My partner (I’m female, he’s male) brought up the possibility of doing it to him but I just refused. The possibility of horrific things happening is just too high.

Also I would worry if a man got enjoyments from choking, hitting, biting etc a woman.

Perhaps they get enjoyment from seeing the pleasure the woman gets from it, just like some men enjoy performing oral sex.
I knew a woman who ditched her bf as she enjoyed being choked and he felt uncomfortable doing it, and I also know a man who ditched his girlfriend because she wanted him to choke her and he thought it was too weird, so it isn't always driven by men.
The wider question is, why do women enjoy being dominated? In my younger days I went to bondage clubs but there were as many dom women as sub ones, but it doesn't appear to be the case with choking.

I do see your point but you're not actually supporting it, what I do in my own bedroom with my partner is no one else's business.

And funnily enough, my abusive, misogynistic, narcisitic, ex, who by the end almost killed me, hated any form of sexual violence, wouldn't so much as spank my arse. So I guess my personal experience is that those two things are very unconnected.

@Catza I can't imagine that the majority of people strangling their partners during sex are all as responsible as the picture you're painting. The statistics on fatalities and injury and the number of women who claim they have had someone try to strangle them without asking first suggest the reality for most people is different. Plus, add drugs or alcohol into the mix (which I'm sure is against your rules) and things are very, very dangerous.

Because the men who are called out on strangling women then have their position reaffirmed by other women who reassure them that the women who did not like this are just 'boring' and 'vanilla' (and therefore it is their fault they did not like it)

Exactly this, which is basically patriarchy 101. It makes individuals the problem (vanilla women, violent "bad apples" men) and totally ignores the systemic power hierarchy that exists between men and women and all the factors that propagate it.

I don't disagree with that.
Some people are responsible drivers, some are driving under influence. Sex is no different, unfortunately.
I don't condone non-consensual practices of any kind. It's not kink as far as I am concerned. It's a criminal offence.

No, it’s not a defence. It’s a defendant (who will be a man, basically) saying “This is what we did, this is why, this is how it happened. I had no intention to kill”. Whether that stands up in the face of all the other evidence is a matter for the jury.

And it still leaves manslaughter.

That’s the same more or less universally in murder cases (other than, for example, alibis or self-defence and the particular partial defences like loss of control).

I had the same thought.

Once again, nobody has said that not to enjoy or want to do the more unusual sexual practices is 'vanilla' or 'boring'. It's the sheer inability for people to understand that there are women who like that sort of thing for no underlying reason other than it brings them pleasure.

@Saymyname28 weirdly now you mentioned it my evil abusive ex was the same! Never once even asked for a little bit of anal...