Page 12 | To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

ImTheGoat · 2023-12-21T11:24:48+00:00

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting [[https://wecantconsenttothis.uk https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/]] My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it [[https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation]] I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

anothernamitynamenamechange · 21/12/2023 14:50

@autumn1610 He is too young to talk about porn really. The strangling/choking thing comes up because he likes rough housing with friends. The weird thing is telling kids not to choke each other because its dangerous is a completely normal thing. I do martial arts and not actually choking each other/punching each other in the neck for real is a thing then as well. I don't know why some people don't think the same rules apply between adults when one person is physically bigger and stronger than the other just because they are naked. I don't want to turn this thread into a "what about the men" but the older he gets the more predatory some of the media aimed at teenage boys is and I hate it. I fully accept that he will grow up to have and to meet people with massively different opinions on all sorts of things to me, but people who should know better deliberately spreading obvious untruths are just awful.

pinkstinks · 21/12/2023 14:50

Also further to my earlier points I have worked with young boys who are terrified to do this and think they have to because of porn.

This is where the danger is as well as the rise in this when casually dating that it is taken as “normal” and there is no discussion - anecdotally this is happening to women my age (34)

link again as it’s important

https://ifas.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/There-is-No-Safe-Way-to-Strangle-IFAS-Position-statement-22-November-2023.pdf

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 21/12/2023 14:50

Sleepydoor · 21/12/2023 14:40

Some people on this thread seem to be of the misapprehension that one can consent to assault. There is a common law principle that a person cannot consent to bodily harm, serious injury or death. So the whole "it's fine between consenting adults", and you just need to understand the risks is wrong. It's like saying one can consent to cannibalism or murder. Ya can't.

Consent to assault - more properly, battery - can be consented to. Any hugging, kissing or sex is technically battery. Of course people can consent to it.

Consent cannot be given to serious harm or death.

Again, whether consent was genuinely given in non-fatal strangulation cases or whether there has been serious harm caused is a question of fact each time.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/12/2023 14:51

There is no safe way to choke someone because you are constricting the arteries and veins that feed blood to and from the brain.

Safer forms of breath play exist that don't require compression of the neck and, importantly, give the submissive a decent chance to tap out before they pass out.

There is no excuse for choking someone and we need to treat chokers with the same contempt that we treat drunk drivers.

diddl · 21/12/2023 14:51

It should be illegal for rough sex and kinks to be used as a mitigation in a case where someone has been injured or killed.

I absolutely agree with this.

Someone I knew is on the list linked in the first post.

The verdict was manslaughter.

How is putting your hands around someone's neck & squeezing until they die not murder?

Simpleblessingsxx · 21/12/2023 14:52

Simpleblessingsxx · 21/12/2023 14:41

I couldn't find UK stats. In the USA statistics say somewhere between 250-1000 people per year die when participating in consensual choking during sex. I think one is too many but each to their own.

I meant to add this doesn't include numbers suffering strokes & brain injury which according to statistics is even higher 🤦‍♀️

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/12/2023 14:53

cerisepanther73 · 21/12/2023 14:46

@ImTheGoat

I am going to have a guess

Women don't enjoy being chocked,

Why on earth would 😕 any woman enjoy her patner attempting to chock =strangle her then!!!?

Doesn't make any sense whatsoever

This is extreme misogynistic sado machismo warped sick fantasty inspired by hardcore films or mags

The problem isn't that some women might like being choked. It's that some men like to choke.

The problem is men putting women's lives at risk.

Pinapanda · 21/12/2023 14:53

Winterknights · 21/12/2023 14:41

Well there are a lot of things other people like which I find strange or unappealing too but I accept its something they enjoy. Ice baths, for example. Owning dogs. Or ultra running. So if your case, as it seems to be, is that if I don't like something, then no-one should, is far from the mark.

There are other things that I think are harmful more widely , which means, in my opinion, they cannot be justified by an uber free market ' my personal choice' argument.

And I'd put misogynistic porn ( which is most of it), the misnamed 'race play' and strangulation amongst this.

There are also practices, like nullification surgery, that cause such harm to the individual that they also should not be justified by a free market ' personal choice' model.

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I share your sentiment on body modification surgeries but rather when they are carried out on minors or other people who cannot consent. This includes some mental illnesses and I think doctors have a duty of care here. If an adult person of sound mind wants to do something they should be allowed to do it.

Annalouisa · 21/12/2023 14:53

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 11:46

@notsuredate err yes, of course some of us do.

I don’t go in for full on asphyxiation, but I like a had around my neck now and again. As long as you’re with someone you trust then it’s fine. My DP enjoys it too, but he is always a bit afraid of hurting me. He doesn’t go far with it.

I don’t think those who are the type that genuinely want to hurt women will hold out for someone who likes a bit of rough just to cover for themselves. If they are going to kill they’re going to kill. Not enjoying rough sex won’t save you.

Here's something I never thought we'd hear: "My dear partner enjoys strangling me". 🤐

What's next: " I like being hit in the face now and again." 😶

There've always been niche interests like scatology etc., but sexual violence and domination becoming commonplace, even if practiced consensually, has troubling implications for everyone else. E.g. rapists, abusers, murderers claiming "everything was consensual, she was asking for it"...

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/12/2023 14:55

Pinapanda · 21/12/2023 14:53

I share your sentiment on body modification surgeries but rather when they are carried out on minors or other people who cannot consent. This includes some mental illnesses and I think doctors have a duty of care here. If an adult person of sound mind wants to do something they should be allowed to do it.

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If an adult person of sound mind wants to do something they should be allowed to do it.

That doesn't mean that someone should be allowed to help them do something clearly stupid.

I have the right to self-harm, but if I ask someone to cut me and they do, they've committed a criminal offence and it's right that they are criminalised for that.

DarkDayforMN · 21/12/2023 14:56

Nobody ever talks about the men. As if "choking" is an abstract fantasy, not an act with a perpetrator.

Do I think women who let men strangle them are idiots?

Yes, because they're going to bed with men who want to strangle them.

Winterknights · 21/12/2023 14:56

Pinapanda · 21/12/2023 14:53

I share your sentiment on body modification surgeries but rather when they are carried out on minors or other people who cannot consent. This includes some mental illnesses and I think doctors have a duty of care here. If an adult person of sound mind wants to do something they should be allowed to do it.

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I completely disagree with this and I would also argue that someone wanting all of their genitals removed is a clear indication that they are not of sound mind.

anothernamitynamenamechange · 21/12/2023 14:57

@pinkstinks I have done self defence training one part of which involves a male trainer holding someone down and the male trainers found it very very uncomfortable. One of the trainees once asked if he could actually hold down on her neck so that she could see if it was possible to escape "for real"** and he was like ummm no, and extremely uncomfortable with it. It is normal and frankly healthy for teenage boys to feel terrified doing something that could land them in prison. They need to be told (if they aren't already) that you don't have to do it even if you think the girl wants it as well.

**Even with all the skills in the world this is very very difficult and not something you actually ever want to be trying to do in real life

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 21/12/2023 14:58

anothernamitynamenamechange · 21/12/2023 14:57

@pinkstinks I have done self defence training one part of which involves a male trainer holding someone down and the male trainers found it very very uncomfortable. One of the trainees once asked if he could actually hold down on her neck so that she could see if it was possible to escape "for real"** and he was like ummm no, and extremely uncomfortable with it. It is normal and frankly healthy for teenage boys to feel terrified doing something that could land them in prison. They need to be told (if they aren't already) that you don't have to do it even if you think the girl wants it as well.

**Even with all the skills in the world this is very very difficult and not something you actually ever want to be trying to do in real life

Impact?

Where did you find a course?

autumn1610 · 21/12/2023 14:59

@anothernamitynamenamechange ahh well when he he is old enough I hope you are able to have frank discussions around it with him. I am with you the media and men is scary.

Kittybythelighthouse · 21/12/2023 14:59

A man put his hands round my sister’s throat out of the blue during the first (and only) time they had sex. When she pushed him off and told him she found it frightening he had the brass neck to accuse her of “kink shaming” him like he was the injured party. Boo hoo. If people are adult enough to risk their or their partner’s life in a sex act they are adult enough to cope if others think such activities are troubling and foolish. Privately indulged kinks are of no interest to anyone else, assuming they are legal and consensual. However, the normalisation of extreme practices puts people in situations like my sister. I’m sure it’s worse for younger women or teens who may not have as much confidence. Hence I will kink shame all day every day and I don’t give a 💩 who wrings their hands about kink shaming.

thedankness · 21/12/2023 15:00

@DarkDayforMN Exactly. There's a difference between getting off on pain because supposedly pain and pleasure are intertwined, and getting off on intentionally hurting someone (or even agreeing to hurt someone). Aren't you supposed to like the person you have sex with?

Janewontmessage · 21/12/2023 15:04

ImTheGoat · 21/12/2023 13:24

I don't think it's about policing it but about raising awareness of the risks so that people can give informed consent if they (in my opinion foolishly, but to each their own) choose to partake. It's a practice that has grown more popular in the past few years but there hasn't been a corresponding* *public education campaign to go along with that. So it's a practice that has become normalised and young women may well think "oh, that sounds fun, I'll give it a try" without knowing the dangers.

During the AIDS epidemic for example there was a huge focus on safe sex education that undoubtedly prevented many deaths. That's why I think pointing out the dangers associated with this when it's discussed is important.

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@ImTheGoat fair point. It’s not my thing but if it was I wouldn’t have any idea of the risks as you’re right, they’re not well known.

Winterknights · 21/12/2023 15:04

A man put his hands round my sister’s throat out of the blue during the first (and only) time they had sex. When she pushed him off and told him she found it frightening he had the brass neck to accuse her of “kink shaming” him like he was the injured party

This is a really clear example of why ' kink shaming' is actually a manipulative term.

Its also a staggeringly hypocritical accusation from a community that literally invented the perjorative term ' vanilla' to shame how everyone else has sex ( and yes it is pejorative and intended to be shaming, you just need to look at how 'kink' posters use it on this thread and many others).

SkySecret · 21/12/2023 15:06

What's next: " I like being hit in the face now and again." 😶

@Annalouisa nah, I’m the one that does the slapping him round the face bit 😘

Saymyname28 · 21/12/2023 15:06

Ah yes, because humans never engage in risky behaviours for pleasure.

If you don't like something, then don't do it. But why do people need to be so vocal with their opinions about things that other people are doing. I don't care if you like choking, boxing, smoking, drinking, red meat, gaming. It's none of your business what consenting adults do between themselves.

Sleepydoor · 21/12/2023 15:08

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying Yes, sorry you can't consent to assault causing serious bodily harm. But the law is that consent is not a defence if the victim suffers serious harm. Any harm that is not "trifling or transient". The line is not "non-fatal".

https://www.guildhallchambers.co.uk/2023/06/30/non-fatal-strangulation/

Non-Fatal Strangulation: elements, defence and sentencing - Guildhall Chambers

Criminal barrister Caitlin Evans discusses non-fatal strangulation in relation to the Domestic Abuse Act 2021.

https://www.guildhallchambers.co.uk/2023/06/30/non-fatal-strangulation

thedankness · 21/12/2023 15:08

@Kittybythelighthouse I had a very similar experience to your sister. He didn't kink-shame me but he was totally baffled as to why I was horrified and wanted to leave (which I did). Porn had normalised it so much for him.

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 21/12/2023 15:11

diddl · 21/12/2023 14:51

It should be illegal for rough sex and kinks to be used as a mitigation in a case where someone has been injured or killed.

I absolutely agree with this.

Someone I knew is on the list linked in the first post.

The verdict was manslaughter.

How is putting your hands around someone's neck & squeezing until they die not murder?

It isn’t mitigation!

The defendant says “I didn’t intend to kill”. That’s commonplace in many fatal crimes: the man who kills with a punch in a pub, the gang member who stabs an ‘enemy’, etc.

If there’s no intent to kill - on the test of beyond reasonable doubt - it’s not murder.

Mitigation is when the crime (murder) is proven but the reasons are taken into account. That’s a sentencing issue.

autumn1610 · 21/12/2023 15:12

thedankness · 21/12/2023 15:08

@Kittybythelighthouse I had a very similar experience to your sister. He didn't kink-shame me but he was totally baffled as to why I was horrified and wanted to leave (which I did). Porn had normalised it so much for him.

@thedankness even though I enjoy it. I would also be horrified and out the door if a guy put his hand on my neck without asking if he could or if it is something I want. I have no time for guys who do not ask for consent.