To think women who enjoy choking during sex should know the risks?

[ImTheGoat]

In a different thread the topic of choking during sex has come up repeatedly. Some women say they enjoy it and it's none of anyone else's business. Others have said it gives abusive men an excuse to hide behind if and when they murder their partners- see here for some tragic stories but bear in mind they're upsetting https://wecantconsenttothis.uk/

My own point of view is that choking during sex is dangerous. Study after study have pointed out that it can cause death or lead to brain damage. It's easy to find this information online but here's an article about it https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-asphyxiation I do think people should be able to do what they want sexually if it isn't hurting anyone. But I also think people should be aware of the risks. In the other thread people who raised any objection to choking during sex were called "pearl clutchers" or "sex police." AIBU to think no, knock yourself out if that's what you want to do but at least acknowledge it isn't a safe sexual activity?

Men enjoy being choked too. Are they to be appraised of this risk or is it just us women who need to be told.

@catza Sex under the influence is fine. It's the strangulation that's the issue.

How is being referred to as vanilla or boring any different to telling those that say they're into things outside of the norm that there's something wrong with them, that they're only going along with what someone else wants or that they've been conditioned by society to accept it. It's OK to like different things, it's not OK to shame people for it if everyone involved is of age and consenting

A thread from We Can't Consent to This on Twitter/X about the normalisation of "choking" as a sex practice

https://x.com/wecantconsentto/status/1634494263688929282?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

In the replies neuropsychologist Dr Helen Bichard links to the systematic review she carried out in 2021, saying

"Honey. You need to risk serious brain injury". Strangulation is the 2nd most common cause of stroke in young women, due to damage to the carotid artery as a result of pressure on the neck. How edgy and empowering is stroke, exactly?"

x.com/bicharddr/status/1634520087687229440?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09602011.2020.1868537

Have you ever heard of analogies @Sleepydoor ?
What I meant is that we could argue driving a car is inherently unsafe but there is a big difference between a responsible driver and someone who routinely DWI.
Same with certain sexual practices. There is an inherently unsafe element and you can be a "responsible driver" making your best effort to eliminate risks for you and your sexual partner or you can be DWI hiring a sex worker to wrap you in a plastic bag.

@thedankness that’s you though and I get that not everyone could do it and I haven’t done it with all my sexual partners. Doesn’t mean we don’t care about each other. People who enjoy BDSM and I would say it more from the average guy who watches porn and replicates it, there is a big importance on aftercare. I never feel used after as we practice good aftercare.

but i will bang on about choking is not ok if you do not want to be choked or you don’t want to be choked by someone. I wouldn’t say anyone is boring or vanilla for not wanting to be choked and because I occasionally like it doesn’t give a free pass for it to be done with someone else.

@InAMess2023

Someone on this thread did suggest make some pretty nasty comments about a poster on this thread having a boring sex life. There was definitely some vanilla sex shaming going on earlier.

Someone said what about the men who like this, my guess is they tend to seek other men or pay sex workers to do this, I can't think of a rough sex defence which involved a women perpetrator who was in a relationship with the man, it would be a minute number of cases.

No, it’s not a defence.

Men use the claim that there was "consent" to get a lighter sentence for killing a woman than they would if lack of consent to strangulation or other violence is obvious. The actual term used isn't the most important thing here. Please engage with the point rather than evade it.

No need to be patronizing @catza. I'm just saying you said sex under the influence and it's not the sex that's the issue -- it's adding a dangerous element to the sex.

As opposed to the non-vanilla sex shaming which apparently is ok?

Actually, I never said anything about sex under the influence (which I also don't condone).

Sky

Surely you have just demonstrated the risks? What if he had been on the verge of orgasm? How can you be sure he would have stopped?

If there was no harm inflicted during the act, why would you need "aftercare"? Aftercare sounds like the necessary bridge back to reality; after all a lot of cognitive dissonance is required to convince yourself hurt and power is positive, as sex should be.

Kinky sex doesn't equal better sex for everyone. You want to do it, but you don't like it when people criticise the normalisation of some often harmful practices on a wider level. It's not all about you.

It would be a lot easier for it to go wrong during affectionate sex if it’s man strangling woman as well. My partner actually crushes the breath out of me during completely vanilla sex and I wouldn’t want even a fraction of his weight anywhere near my neck to be honest. I don’t think all of the men who kill women with choking are gleeful sadists and just imagine what it would feel like to kill someone you love and were just having a bit of fun with. I couldn’t bear to hurt him, so no, my hands aren’t going round his neck just as I will happily act as a weighted blanket for him, but he flatly refuses to put his full weight on me.

@InAMess2023 I was responding to this: "Once again, nobody has said that not to enjoy or want to do the more unusual sexual practices is 'vanilla' or 'boring'."
Just saying, there was some of that going on on this thread.

@YeahIsaidit This whole thread is full of examples and analysis as to why that comparison is not the same.

I watched Love Actually yesterday from 2003 and the idea of love and sex couldn’t be more different than today.

If you watch the film, the tenderness, the hope, the excitement, that runs through the whole film about relationships and sex is just not present in 2023.

Porn has killed it for women. You’ll get those that adapt… but most would rather go back to that age.

I’m not being evasive. I’m pointing out that your account of a ‘rough sex defence’ is wrong.

Do you think any defendant who admits to killing but denies intent should be convicted anyway?

If it’s obvious - as it usually will be - in cases of death by strangulation that there was lack of consent, the defendant’s argument will fail.

@catza You said "Some people are responsible drivers, some are driving under influence. Sex is no different, unfortunately."

All I am saying is it's not the sex under the influence that is the issue. I don't see how you think I am twisting your words, but we can agree to disagree.

If my sister begged me to give her a lift after I'd been drinking, I wouldn't be able to dodge responsibility by saying "she consented to the known risk of getting into a car with a drunk driver" if I flipped the car into a ditch and killed her. Same if she asked a sober me to take 90 degree corner at 60mph. Or if she asked me to inject her with bleach. Or cut her with a razorblade.

Men are not slaves to women's desires and can and should say no to inflicting harm on their partners as a matter of basic human decency. If a particular sensation is wished for, you find a low-risk way of achieving that or you go without.

I am sick of sexualised violence and sexualised harm against women being framed as a problem of women consentin instead the problem it really is: men committing violent acts.

I’m not being evasive. I’m pointing out that your account of a ‘rough sex defence’ is wrong.

You are being pedantic. I am using defence in the common usage sense, as in "something the defence team use in a criminal case to get a lighter sentence for the perpetrator." This is a talkboard, not a crown court.

I don't want to take away anyone's healthy kinks, and if you have elaborate ways of making sure everyone is fully satisfied by being 100% safe, go for it. But it is harmful to normalize dangerous practices and to make them pervasive in pornography and popular culture, to the point that all young people learning about sex equate violence or degradation with sex. You can argue it's not going to have an overwhelmingly negative effect but the statistics say otherwise.

But nobody has said that anyone is wrong to enjoy "vanilla" sex exclusively and that having no interest in BDSM is wrong. People are being told they're wrong for what they enjoy or that they're just pandering to a man's wants and are being judged for it