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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

811 replies

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 17:25

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

OP posts:
doglover90 · 19/12/2023 20:16

@Nonplusultra how do you know the teacher is neurotypical?

waterdusky · 19/12/2023 20:17

Nonplusultra · 19/12/2023 20:10

The teacher needs to develop more resilience and emotional regulation so that she’s not snapping at students.

Shouldn’t be a problem for a neuro typical adult judging by the expectations a lot of posters on this thread have about what disabled children should manage.

How do you know the teacher is NT? Teaching, because of the rigid routines and pre-determined core routines, actually attracts a higher number of ND people than you'd realise. The vast majority of our maths, IT and science teachers at our school have autism.

Pieceofpurplesky · 19/12/2023 20:18

An autistic child can be triggered by anything and it can manifest in many ways at any time. An incident one day can easily lead to a meltdown the next. I see this day in day out at school (specialist).

I left mainstream as children like the OP's DD were being let down. The OP says that all teachers are aware of her daughter and her needs but I disagree unless it's a tiny school. Many teachers do not have the time to read a full EHCP and its recommendations because they are being battered by SLT about results, communication is shit and trying to manage increasingly challenging behaviour (even in a girls' school with good behaviour).

The teacher may have snapped, she probably feels terrible - but she did need to keep your daughter to one side to see where the seat was - she probably hadn't had time to see what the seating plan said.

OP please blame the system that lets kids and teachers down!

kimchio · 19/12/2023 20:19

waterdusky · 19/12/2023 20:17

How do you know the teacher is NT? Teaching, because of the rigid routines and pre-determined core routines, actually attracts a higher number of ND people than you'd realise. The vast majority of our maths, IT and science teachers at our school have autism.

Thanks for saying this. I think some parents forget this.

Keepingthingsinteresting · 19/12/2023 20:20

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 19:13

And what she should have done differently? Well, like all the other teachers she should have been welcoming and polite and got DD seated quickly as per the seating plan she should have done.

Ok. @UndertheCedartree this is where you lost me. The teacher is not an air hostess, the welcome may not have been perfect, but it clearly wasn’t intentional and it’s been made very clear by lots of posters the pressure and lack of support teachers are under.
It was a less than ideal situation, it’s a shame for your daughter, but this will sadly not be the last time, and honest if you alienating teachers you are in for a long rough riddle, you catch more flies with honey that vinegar.

Hope your DD is starting to feel better.

Witchdr92456 · 19/12/2023 20:21

Is your dd in secondary school? Has she got a echp? unfortunately when they leave primary they aren’t cared and nurtured anymore. They are basically just a number and if it’s a large school they are forgotten about because of the numbers in the year groups. I would be looking to change to a more specialist provision as they will keep happening

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:21

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 17:55

This is nothing to do with the teacher.

If it's the end of December and your daughter is going into the Science lesson for the first time, that's a very unusual situation. It sounds like the teacher may not have been given any warning or much warning that they were getting a new student, and clearly didn't have time to allocate her a seat in advance, so asked her to wait to see where a spare space would be free before allocating her somewhere to sit. You have no idea that she 'snapped'. That's your daughter's perception but may not have been the reality.

If the school is this shit at giving teachers a heads up about new starters, I doubt this teacher was given any information about your daughter's autism, either.

I would speak to the SENCO and find out what's going on regarding internal comms. Why is your daughter only going to this Science class for the first time right at the end of term? Why had the teacher not been briefed? It's not the teacher's fault the school doesn't communicate with their staff.

Please be mindful that this is a VERY long term for teachers, and teaching is a stressful and exhausting job. Sometimes we are snappy because we're human and can't be perfect all the time. Teachers are not going to be able to always ensure your daughter gets spoken to or treated in a way that won't cause her to have a meltdown, and expecting them to is unreasonable. If you choose to place your daughter in a mainstream school, you have to help her prepare for that reality.

Edited

Sorry to explain why she was only just going into this class - they have each Science only once over a 2 week period and DD started with a transition so wasn't going into all classes initially.

I honestly don't think it is the school being shit as all other teachers have been aware, it seems and some clearly were aware based on conversations I have had with them etc. I understand teachers are human but would you snap at another member of staff? Would you snap at the head teacher? If not, why not?

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a teacher to be polite, kind and welcoming. And neither does the head teacher. This was one of the reasons I chose this school. It has a wonderful atmosphere because the teachers are like that and therefore the students are too.

And what exactly do you mean by if I 'choose' to place her in mainstream? It's hardly a choice for most parents. And besides she does well in mainstream with some support. Support that all the other teachers haven't had a problem providing.

OP posts:
BarelyCoping123 · 19/12/2023 20:22

@PaperDoIIs Then maybe you should do some reading on autism. Or be you know, more flexible and stretch your imagination a bit.

Actually I know quite a bit about autism. Are you suggesting that flexibility & resilience are not things that we as parents should try to adopt, nor try to model for children with autism? If so, I think you do a great disservice to parents & children alike.

thefallen · 19/12/2023 20:23

People are doing those with SEN a massive disservice if they are assumed not to be able to develop resilience.

OP - things happen. Your daughter's teacher will have been dealing with 29 other children at the same time. He or she is probably exhausted. Your daughter can be helped to understand that sometimes people make mistakes.

StupidStunts · 19/12/2023 20:23

So - assuming the teacher is nd, the nd teacher gets a pass because she is human, but the nd 11yo doesn't and should develop 'resilience'?

I am autistic with autistic dc. I expect more from myself than I do from them, because I have been alive longer and had more chance to develop coping mechanisms.

Not giving special treatment, expecting resilience and masking, damaged me as a teen. This thread is so full of ablist crap

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 20:23

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:13

The teacher had 3 weeks notice. As I have said she didn't ask her to wait. I know that she snapped. And how if I apparently have no idea, you a complete stranger apparently know what happened! I'll trust my DD and the school to tell me what happened!!

All other members of staff were briefed. The headteacher told me this teacher has also been briefed. I get the impression she has a reputation for being difficult maybe? Of course they were too professional to tell me anything like that it was just the looks they gave each other. I may be wrong on that, though. And if the teacher really hadn't been briefed and therefore it wasn't her fault she hadn't sorted the room plan - it was even less so my Dd's fault so why snap at her?

I still don't know what you want from this thread.

The Headteacher has investigated. The teacher has admitted she didn't handle the situation well. She can't change it now.

You need to move past it. Teachers do sometimes snap. Teachers do sometimes get flustered and overwhelmed. You weren't there either. You don't know what happened from the teacher's perspective. If I've got a class of 30 kids coming into my classroom, I might just have got there myself, and I'm trying to get them settled and sat down, I'm trying to get logged into the computer, I'm trying to get books handed out, and then I've got kids queuing up to tell me that they need the toilet, can they go to their locker, they forgot their homework, and then if someone then said to me, oh I don't know where to sit, where should I sit, I might turn and say - slightly snappily - can you just wait a minute?

Can you REALLY not see from the teacher's perspective how this might have happened?

You seem absolutely determined to believe that this teacher is a malicious, unprofessional nasty cow who deliberately targeted your autistic daughter. Maybe she did. Maybe she hates autistic kids. Maybe she doesn't want your daughter in her class. Maybe she's an evil crone who shouldn't be anywhere near kids.

Or maybe - just maybe - she's a knackered, overworked woman who in a moment of feeling overwhelmed and underprepared made an error of judgement. She has admitted it. I'm sure she feels terrible. I would in her shoes.

Rather than continuing to demonise her, how about giving the teacher a chance to make amends and to build a positive relationship with your daughter, rather than holding onto a grudge and encouraging your daughter to do the same?

LuckySantangelo35 · 19/12/2023 20:24

Nonplusultra · 19/12/2023 20:10

The teacher needs to develop more resilience and emotional regulation so that she’s not snapping at students.

Shouldn’t be a problem for a neuro typical adult judging by the expectations a lot of posters on this thread have about what disabled children should manage.

@Nonplusultra

how do you know that the teacher is neurotypical?

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:25

Runoutofinkagain · 19/12/2023 17:57

I think it can be very challenging for NT people to understand that something that can look rather innocuous to us can most definitely be traumatising to a ND individual, I wouldn't have realised until my DD came along, she would hang onto this moment for the rest of her life. I realise that sounds incredibly dramatic but she has been traumatised by far less.

OP- you have my sympathies, can the chocolate provide a buddy for her when she goes to unfamiliar classes?
Edited: That is meant to say school not chocolate!!

Edited

Thank you for explaining that. Some people really have no idea but think they know more than all the people around the DC and the DC themselves! Yes, it traumatised her. Yes, she will have to work through it in therapy. I wish that some teachers would understand what their actions can do!

And chocolate may have helped! 😂 A buddy sounds like a good idea.

OP posts:
EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 20:27

NorthernGirlie · 19/12/2023 20:07

My Wednesday morning class has 29 students.
4 have autism (1 of whom is non verbal)
1 is partially sighted so I need to remember to enlarge his work and pick it up from my desk after morning registration
1 has severe seizures
1 has a parent on end of life care and needs keeping an eye on
1 has ODD
1 is on the verge of exclusion for behaviour
1 is non binary so I need to remember that
1 us struggling with endo but is shy about asking to nip to the loo so I like to keep an eye on her for signs of pain and nudge her to nip out

Countless have other struggles, especially at this time of year.

I try - I really, really do but sometimes I can't remember what everyone needs all the time. That's just 1 class.

I love my job - the students are a blast and keep me on my toes. There are a couple I'd move in to my house and give them the care they don't get elsewhere if I could...

I'd be gutted if I upset a child and I'd apologise to them (not to their parent, or the head) because i genuinely want all of the children in all of my classes to be comfortable. I do fuck up sometimes though!

This post really addresses how hard it is for teachers.

I'm very sorry for OP's DD, but even if the teacher spoke out of turn, it's so unfair to hold her responsible for DD's emotional disregulation. I can absolutely see the Head & teacher apologising, and it's correct in part that they do, but I can also see how hard it must be for the teacher, doing their best and then being given grief for a brief misstep.

momonpurpose · 19/12/2023 20:27

How is your daughter now? I hope she isn't too disappointed and maybe you can have a little special day together. It's so hard being a mom and seeing our kids disappointed

EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 20:28

Poor teacher probably feels awful, will have had an awkward conversation with the head and now be questioning their career.

Yes, sadly. I can imagine this. I'm not a teacher but have been in somewhat similar situations in a university setting. It can be really demoralising & upsetting for otherwise committed teaching staff to be characterised in this way.

JVC24601 · 19/12/2023 20:29

I can promise you the “looks” will have been “dear god how do we placate this parent”.

I am so sympathetic to your daughter having to start a brand new lesson with a new class and a new teacher and then have a completely disrupted day out of uniform with no normal routine.

I am also sympathetic to the teacher in an impossible situation.

I am not sympathetic to throwing blame where it really doesn’t need to be thrown.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 19/12/2023 20:29

Sounds like quite an unprofessional school with all the other teachers getting involved The headteacher told me this teacher has also been briefed. I get the impression she has a reputation for being difficult maybe? Of course they were too professional to tell me anything like that it was just the looks they gave each other and the LSA not stepping in to support your daughter in the science class , would they not have access to seating plan if they were there to support your DD?

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:30

blackrabbitwhiterabbit · 19/12/2023 17:57

Would she be better suited to a special school for ASD students? I've worked in one and they are brilliant at dealing with meltdowns and all other issues- that's what they're there for. And tiny classes.

It's impossible to get a place here if your DC doesn't have learning disabilities. That's why huge numbers of ASD DC are home educated. My DD has done well in mainstream with support and this school is small and very supportive.

OP posts:
whiteroseredrose · 19/12/2023 20:31

YANBU to be sad about this. It sounds like your DD has had a good experience of secondary school so far, to the extent that she was about to access the big Christmas dinner, which is a big deal. And then, due to what was probably thoughtlessness by one teacher it has all come crashing down.

Hopefully your DD will continue to progress and not be set back too much.

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:33

Witsend101 · 19/12/2023 18:00

This is 100% the schools fault. Your daughter should have a pupil profile which makes all her teachers aware of your daughters needs and a plan should have been in place prior to her going into the science lesson. However, I do think the school Christmas Dinner might have been a nightmare and imagine it would have been quite overwhelming for someone's first visit to the school canteen.

Yes, she does have a pupil profile and a plan.

I know on the face of it the Christmas dinner might sound like a nightmare but on a usual lunchtime all years will be using the canteen but at the Christmas dinner it would have only been Y7.

OP posts:
UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:35

ItAintGonnaGoDownEasyIfItAintCheezy · 19/12/2023 18:00

What plan would prevent your dd having to wait to see where the spare seats are?

It sounds like a bit of entitlement is going on here too.

The seating plan.

Yep, being autistic really makes you entitled! 🙄

OP posts:
EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 20:36

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:21

Sorry to explain why she was only just going into this class - they have each Science only once over a 2 week period and DD started with a transition so wasn't going into all classes initially.

I honestly don't think it is the school being shit as all other teachers have been aware, it seems and some clearly were aware based on conversations I have had with them etc. I understand teachers are human but would you snap at another member of staff? Would you snap at the head teacher? If not, why not?

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a teacher to be polite, kind and welcoming. And neither does the head teacher. This was one of the reasons I chose this school. It has a wonderful atmosphere because the teachers are like that and therefore the students are too.

And what exactly do you mean by if I 'choose' to place her in mainstream? It's hardly a choice for most parents. And besides she does well in mainstream with some support. Support that all the other teachers haven't had a problem providing.

Ah, I see. That makes more sense re: starting the class so late.

And you know what I mean by choose. If you choose a mainstream school for your child who has SEN, you have to go in knowing there is not going to be the same provision as in a specialist school. Expecting every teacher to be trained in how to deal with your daughter's autism is unrealistic. This training doesn't happen and mainstream teachers do their best based on their experience and instinct, but that's all. There is no money or time for training. So you have to be prepared for that.

Look, I don't know the school, I don't know the teacher, I don't know the exact circumstances. I'm just giving you a teacher's perspective of how things are on the ground.

And yes, actually, I have snapped at colleagues and at my Headteacher, several times. We all have. Teaching is really stressful and sometimes really upsetting, and sometimes you do lose your cool because you're human. Honestly, please, do it for a day before trying to judge and blame. I remember vividly one day when a lovely child in my form came to me in the break between lessons to tell me she'd been raped at the weekend by a family member. I had to hold it together while she made this disclosure to me, take her over to the pastoral support building and hold her hand while she told the DSL what had happened, then run back over and teach my next class, all while holding back tears and having to act as if everything was perfectly normal. It was exhausting and I was a crying wreck at the end of it. I cried alone in my classroom, then had to go and splash water on my face to then come back and teach the next class. In many schools, that is the day-to-day reality for teachers. When your child comes home and says 'Mrs X was mean to me today' and you go in all guns blazing, you genuinely have no idea what that teacher will have been dealing with mentally while trying to teach your child.

I do my best to always be polite, kind, loving and caring to my students. But sometimes they really, really, really test my patience, and sometimes I do snap. Especially when I'm tired, or ill, or I've got shit going on in my own life. I'm not perfect. I do my best, but sometimes I let myself and the kids down. I always apologise when I do, but I know that sometimes that won't be enough for a child who's been hurt by what I've thoughtlessly said in a moment of stress. And it's not easy to live with that. I've cried many times after a long day at work, beating myself up for all the things I could and should have done differently. It's not an easy gig.

It really, really bothers me that so many people who have no idea what it's like, seem to expect teachers to be superhuman. It all adds to the pressure we're already under, and it's crippling. It really is.

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 20:36

GodDammitCecil · 19/12/2023 18:01

@UndertheCedartree do you really think coming onto Mumsnet is the best way to feel better about this………?

I find the solidarity from other parents with ASD DC helpful. The ignorant replies...not so much.

OP posts:
aubergineman · 19/12/2023 20:38

I cannot believe the replies you're getting on this thread. A grown up in a position of power, in a new school, snapping at a year 7 could upset even a NT child. Of course it's going to be exacerbated for a ND child.

I'm sorry this happened to your DD, so disappointing for you both.

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