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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

811 replies

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 17:25

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 22:36

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 20/12/2023 14:41

From your own posts@UndertheCedartree
The teacher actually said she was snapping because she was in a bad mood so she said it herself!
The teacher shouldn't have snapped at her or made her wait at the front of the class?
So she did say she was in a bad mood and make her wait?

Show quote history

Oh fair enough, a I just remembered she said she was in a bad mood.

My DD had to wait at the front of the class as a consequence of having no idea what was going on or what to do. The teacher didn't ask her to wait at the front of the class as people keep saying.

OP posts:
adviceneeded1990 · 20/12/2023 22:41

@UndertheCedartree you said in a previous post that “I was just there with my DD when the LSA made the comment to the headteacher.”

The LSA shouldn’t be commenting on her opinion of the teachers tone/behaviour in front of you or your DD. Highly unprofessional behaviour. And the HT should be shutting that down ASAP and having that discussion privately.

Of course the teacher should be kind to all children but “snapping” is very vague, what one person hears as a snappish tone another person might be totally fine with. I’ve had kids saying staff in my school are shouting when others think their voices are barely raised. Everyone hears things differently and if I was the teacher and my HT based an opinion of my tone on the word of one interpretation, I would 100% raise a concern with my union.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 22:50

Windflower92 · 20/12/2023 15:00

So you say you didn't involve the headteacher but...why was the headteacher talking to you about it? What exactly is the timeline of events here? Have you had a meeting with the headteacher to complain about this teacher without her there?

I'm so glad I left teaching!

I took DD to school - she was distressed. Learning support came down to the reception to get her as normal but she became more distressed at the thought of leaving me. She went into meltdown. The Head teacher obviously heard DD and invited us into her office as it was warmer. DD spoke to the headteacher about the incident.

As I keep saying, I've made no complaint against this teacher so no I wasn't having a meeting with the head to complain about the teacher without her there!

I'm pretty glad I left teaching too although you're always teaching as a nurse!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 22:53

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 15:02

She wasn't to know the teacher would bite DD's head off
So teachers now 'biting her head off'?

Yes, it means the same as snapping at someone. Many posters have used it synonymously on this thread.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 22:57

Xmastime2023 · 20/12/2023 15:39

I was being understanding I’m surrounded by ND family members and am potentially myself so 🤷🏻‍♀️

Show quote history

I think this poster was genuinely trying to be supportive.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:05

mrscatwoman · 20/12/2023 15:54

Come on, OP, you can't possibly know how popular and supportive the head is seen as by the teachers! Neither can I, obviously, but this insistence that the only one possibly in the wrong is the teacher is just odd.

Why can't I possibly know this? I've spoken to lots of teachers about her and that's what they have said!! She's supporting one of my best friends through something really difficult right now. Honestly, I'm getting lost. You're quite right you don't know as you're a stranger on the internet. However, this is my life and so yes, I do know what's going on it, funnily enough! I mean if you think I'm lying fine, but then why engage?

OP posts:
wandawaves · 20/12/2023 23:10

All the comments about teachers being only human and are allowed to snap sometimes... I disagree. I'm a nurse who works with the elderly. They have behaviours that are incessant, intrusive, threatening, highly highly irritating... but I would never and have never snapped at them. They are vulnerable people. I am a professional person. You have to remain calm and patient 100% of the time. If a nurse 'snaps' at a resident, this can be reported as elderly abuse, and has indeed happened and has to be reported and investigated. It is a huge deal.

I absolutely have snapped in my personal life at my kids. But in my professional life with the elderly, never.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:10

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 20/12/2023 16:03

Many of us work in exhausting roles. Would you be happy to be snapped at by a midwife, a GP, a shop worker, or in fact your own boss?

Happy? No. But I would think that getting a less-than-sunny response occasionally is a normal part of human interaction.

I agree, it just isn't a line I would ever cross. I don't snap at students or patients or colleagues no matter how tired I am at the end of a long shift.

Literally never? Well you must be a very unusual person then.

I'm not unique, my team are polite too. I wouldn't expect anything less. It's nice to be nice. It makes you feel good about yourself, everyone is happier, it all rubs off on each other...it's a nice culture to have, imo

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:12

AnneValentine · 20/12/2023 16:06

If it hadn’t been that it would have been something else.

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But hopefully not the day before Christmas dinner!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:22

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 16:21

Was the teacher involved in this 'discussion' and allowed to give her views?
The LSA isn't one of your good friends who works at the school?

Well I would assume so. It was between herself and the head so none of my business what was actually said before you start asking me exactly what was said!
My 2 close friends at the school are teachers. I've also spoken to other teachers there at parties - when I was researching schools for my DD!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:55

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 16:24

This expectation is unrealistic - that no-one will ever speak in a way that makes someone uncomfortable.

I’m sorry, but every person in the workplace at some point has spoken using words or a tone which might not be welcomed by others. Or they have used a facial expression or body language to show exasperation. And OP, if you’ve been a nurse and worked in a school, you will have done it too.

It’s not right and it will impact some people more than others, but it is a common thing to happen. Sometimes children think they’ve been snapped at or spoken to roughly, and a teacher might have zero awareness of it or it can be a perception thing. Other times, they like all workers in all jobs might say they’ve had a bad day…and like workers in all jobs, might apologise to clients or colleagues for such words. Again, these things happen.

People generally move on from them. I nudneratnd some people will be more impacted than others. Parents usually move on from these things and see them in the broader context ….but I suppose some hang onto them and want to keep talking them over and over and over. Why is that? Is it that they’ve. Tonight. Else to talk about? That they just want to talk about something? Op I think you said you often post in AIBU to get traffic. Is this what this is about…..you simply want to talk and this happens to be the thing youVe posted and has generated a response?

There are things about it all that are odd. Firstly OP didn’t hear the teacher speak. The exact words and tone are unknown. The word ‘snap’ has been used multiple times, as well as ‘Bite her head off’ - difficult for OP or us to know exactly what the tone was. DD was upset. OP is adamant it was this and this only that set her off. Difficult to know. OP is certain she would never speak like this and talks about it being unacceptable - but people being short in their speech when dealing with someone else is pretty common and doesn’t usually generate 20 pages of discussion. And of course too, there is the point about OP saying she’s an autistic single mum to 2 autistic children too. I wonder if OP has considered if perhaps her view of events might be a little narrow or black and white and that crucially the situation and what happened and how people speak is more complex and nuanced than the way she is seeing this event.llwhich she didn’t actually see.

One thing I found odd is the HT involvement. HTs are busy people are rarely involved in day-to-day issues involving children and staff unless they are big big deals and escalated to them. HTs involvement in this particular incident seems unusual. Likewise, OP talks about HT and other staff as if she knows them all Persoanlly, how they are all regarded by other staff and children and about the running of the school as if she knows everything about it all….after 3 weeks! Again, strikes me as odd.

It would be fascinating to hear an account if happening. Scrim the teacher viewpoint or the HTs or those other staff who saw DD that day at various points. I wonder what info we would get that we don’t receive here.

And none of this is to say that what happened is right. But things that aren’t right happen all the time. Even with plans in place for ND children, in secondary schools which are busy places with over stretched resources, things happen. And if DD has been in schools for the last few years as OP says she has, this won’t be the first or last time these things happen. Is OP really upset by each of these incidents, so to take to MN and post for many many pages about them? Is the thread really about DD or OP?

Show quote history

Have you never heard of people posting in AIBU for traffic? It just means more people tend to answer. So yes you get lots of people that don't really have a clue sticking their 2 penneth in but you also get the people who do understand and you get lots of support and advice.

Your posts are funny because you give this impression like you really think you know what you're talking about but you're not really saying a lot. I think you're trying to be helpful but you seem to have an issue about me posting while posting these long posts yourself! ☺️

But now you seem to have turned detective! 😂 Of sorts! We do know what was said and how as my DD told the headteacher And this was backed up by the LSA. DD is perfectly capable of saying what lead to meltdown. It's really not hard to understand. And I think again maybe this isn't something NT can understand. We can see very detailed things very simply due to observance and hyper focus. So it may seem very complicated to you but for me it really isn't. I mean also I'm very familiar with meltdowns!

As I've mentioned this is a small school. It prides itself on having a family feel. The headteacher is very involved. But the simple answer is she could hear my DD in distress and wanted to help. She knew it was cold in reception and invited us into her office as it was warmer. I imagine it was to give DD some privacy too.

And as I explained I had one close friend who used to work there and one who currently works there. I've met some of their teacher friends too. That's how I know how well respected the head is. I haven't spoken about the head as if I know her as I don't. Obviously we spoke to lots of the students at the open evening and scoured Ofsted. I also spoke to all the parents I knew with DDs at the school. It's just research!

But for goodness sake, what do you have against me seeking support in a way that helps me? It really seems to bother you!

If you choose not to believe the facts I've given, knock yourself out! But your posts aren't helping anyone. And what a,waste of time discussing something you don't even think happened! Why not just leave me to get the support from those who are able to give it?

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:58

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 16:24

This expectation is unrealistic - that no-one will ever speak in a way that makes someone uncomfortable.

I’m sorry, but every person in the workplace at some point has spoken using words or a tone which might not be welcomed by others. Or they have used a facial expression or body language to show exasperation. And OP, if you’ve been a nurse and worked in a school, you will have done it too.

It’s not right and it will impact some people more than others, but it is a common thing to happen. Sometimes children think they’ve been snapped at or spoken to roughly, and a teacher might have zero awareness of it or it can be a perception thing. Other times, they like all workers in all jobs might say they’ve had a bad day…and like workers in all jobs, might apologise to clients or colleagues for such words. Again, these things happen.

People generally move on from them. I nudneratnd some people will be more impacted than others. Parents usually move on from these things and see them in the broader context ….but I suppose some hang onto them and want to keep talking them over and over and over. Why is that? Is it that they’ve. Tonight. Else to talk about? That they just want to talk about something? Op I think you said you often post in AIBU to get traffic. Is this what this is about…..you simply want to talk and this happens to be the thing youVe posted and has generated a response?

There are things about it all that are odd. Firstly OP didn’t hear the teacher speak. The exact words and tone are unknown. The word ‘snap’ has been used multiple times, as well as ‘Bite her head off’ - difficult for OP or us to know exactly what the tone was. DD was upset. OP is adamant it was this and this only that set her off. Difficult to know. OP is certain she would never speak like this and talks about it being unacceptable - but people being short in their speech when dealing with someone else is pretty common and doesn’t usually generate 20 pages of discussion. And of course too, there is the point about OP saying she’s an autistic single mum to 2 autistic children too. I wonder if OP has considered if perhaps her view of events might be a little narrow or black and white and that crucially the situation and what happened and how people speak is more complex and nuanced than the way she is seeing this event.llwhich she didn’t actually see.

One thing I found odd is the HT involvement. HTs are busy people are rarely involved in day-to-day issues involving children and staff unless they are big big deals and escalated to them. HTs involvement in this particular incident seems unusual. Likewise, OP talks about HT and other staff as if she knows them all Persoanlly, how they are all regarded by other staff and children and about the running of the school as if she knows everything about it all….after 3 weeks! Again, strikes me as odd.

It would be fascinating to hear an account if happening. Scrim the teacher viewpoint or the HTs or those other staff who saw DD that day at various points. I wonder what info we would get that we don’t receive here.

And none of this is to say that what happened is right. But things that aren’t right happen all the time. Even with plans in place for ND children, in secondary schools which are busy places with over stretched resources, things happen. And if DD has been in schools for the last few years as OP says she has, this won’t be the first or last time these things happen. Is OP really upset by each of these incidents, so to take to MN and post for many many pages about them? Is the thread really about DD or OP?

Show quote history

And I think your last comment is the nail in the coffin of showing complete lack of understanding. It was made quite clear in the OP that this post was about me and how I was feeling. It feels that went right above your head.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:03

Jacfrost · 20/12/2023 16:24

It's often thought that autistic people can't pick up on social cues but actually, they can be excellent at pattern recognition. My DD is quick to notice microexpressions. If you think you saw a look, you're probably spot on.

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My friend always says I'm incredibly observant. It was hard to try and explain because people kept thinking we were all in a meeting discussing it. I just saw/heard this brief exchange that probably for another person it wouldn't have registered.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:06

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 16:39

OP how are you choosing which comments by people to respond to?

You sometimes seem to go back to comments people made yesterday or this morning and other times to things s people have said just now….leaping around the thread.

Are you really wanting to just keep talking and talking rather than to progress this in some way? You say the same things over and over in response to comments people have made at all different times. When people ask a sensible and rational question to clarify things, you often don’t answer. You don’t acknowledge points people make.

Is this just because you want to talk and talk and talk.

I answering exactly in order as I've already said.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:09

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 16:39

OP how are you choosing which comments by people to respond to?

You sometimes seem to go back to comments people made yesterday or this morning and other times to things s people have said just now….leaping around the thread.

Are you really wanting to just keep talking and talking rather than to progress this in some way? You say the same things over and over in response to comments people have made at all different times. When people ask a sensible and rational question to clarify things, you often don’t answer. You don’t acknowledge points people make.

Is this just because you want to talk and talk and talk.

I'm sorry this thread isn't working out for you. Perhaps start your own? It's helping me a lot. I've answered all questions and acknowledged all points up to the point I've read to.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:15

SkinOffNose · 20/12/2023 16:49

I have worked as an nhs doctor for thirty years and hand on heart have never snapped at a patient, colleague or relative. I have felt incredibly irritated inside and had quite negative thoughts, but I would not show it simply because it is damn unprofessional. Of course I am human and at home, I snap at my husband and kids. But it is absolutely unacceptable in my job role and I would bite my tongue. I would not snap at patients ever.

I’m not sure I can accept this reason that teachers are exhausted after a long term. For various cover reasons I have not had a week off work since August. I am absolutely shattered and can tell that I’m feeling more irritable. That does not give me the excuse to snap at anyone.

According to some on here that makes me superhuman. I actually don’t think snapping at work is as common as some teachers here are saying. I can think of very few colleagues who behave in an unprofessional way like that. When my dad was a patient in hospital, I saw nurses being rude and snappy. That was unacceptable too.

my kids have now left school, but I always remember them saying that the best teachers never had to shout. There may be something in that.

Show quote history

Thank you! I did start to wonder if I really was super human! 😂 I agree I don't think snapping at colleagues and students/patients is the norm and in workplaces where it is I would suggest it must be quite an unhealthy environment.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:24

BlackeyedSusan · 20/12/2023 17:51

Parents want schools to fulfil their legal duties as laid out in the Sendcop.

And adults to be resilient enough not to snap at disabled children.

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Quite.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 00:28

Americano75 · 20/12/2023 18:08

And OP, I hope your daughter is OK. I'm not looking forward to my 10 year old starting secondary myself.

She'll be ok. It is a lot of new things to learn. But some schools have really good support.

OP posts:
AnneValentine · 21/12/2023 06:09

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 23:12

But hopefully not the day before Christmas dinner!

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Likely would have been. Xmas is a nightmare for autistic kids. The dinner was actually likely the underlying issue.

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 21/12/2023 08:25

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 21:10

It seems I'm in the minority but I just don't see being polite as a super human thing. Has it always been this way? I thought most people thought manners were important?

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Yes, it's super human to expect politeness 100% of the time. Everyone has an off day, or even an off moment. That's normal. She apologised. You have to help your daughter realise that, much as it's hurtful, it was not a reflection on how the teacher feels about her in general. I get that it's hard and this has affected her badly, but things like this can and will happen. You both need coping strategies.

Bertiesmum3 · 21/12/2023 08:52

29andLost · 20/12/2023 05:43

This Friday

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Oh my!
schools where I live finished last Friday

cardibach · 21/12/2023 12:00

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:22

Well yes, my DD did, the LSA did and the teacher did when the Head spoke to them.

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How do you know t( head spoke to the teacher? You said the only interaction you’ve had with the head is the coincidental meeting in reception when your DD was having a meltdown and he helped.
also you keep saying the teacher didn’t apologise, yet you say she ‘admitted’ it to the class - ie she said she’d snapped because she was in a bit of a bad mood. The only reason for her saying this would be as part of an apology, like ‘sorry if I'm a bit short, I’m having a bad day’. As I’ve said before, I’ll often do that if I know I’m having a bad day even if I don’t think I have snapped in case I inadvertently have a ‘tone’ or irritated body/facial language.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 13:22

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 18:40

The reason people ask the same question multiple times, is because most of your replies don’t relate to the posts just above it, but to one’s from hours or days ago. This means the thread doesn’t run as a conversation or chronologically like most threads do. It’s very disconnected. It feels as if OP isn’t interested in a progressing conversation which is based around lots of people contributing together, but simply 1-2-1 conversations with multiple people. And despite the fact that OP often doesn’t reply to comments for more than 12 hours, she still expects people to have read the whole thread and spotted an answer to a similar question 10 pages back.

It seems OP stated her upset in the first post and wants acknowledgement of her feelings and agreement….but not the usual kind of suggestions about next steps or explanation of why this might have happened, that usual threads get. It emerges that she was upset and thinks the way the teacher spoke want professional and she would never speak like that to anyone and struggles to understand that this could and does happen. And essentially that’s it. But it can fill 20 plus pages, with OP filling almost half of those.

it’s very u usual as a thread.

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It's not unusual for my threads, tbh!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 13:30

Sherrystrull · 20/12/2023 19:10

Why wasn't the LSA with your DC? They were supporting a different child you assume. They should have told that child to wait and supported your dc so the teacher could teach the class. That's the job of the LSA.

What did the teacher actually say?

It was the beginning of the class. Another DC probably needed some support. LSAs are very busy! It is the teachers job to have the seating plan and to tell the girls where to sit. My daughter asked where to sit and the teachers snapped 'I don't know!' At the end of the day the teacher can't start teaching untill everyone is seated.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 21/12/2023 13:33

Sherrystrull · 20/12/2023 19:13

All these smug poster telling teachers to learn more about SEND. I understand clearly about all of the needs in my class. It doesn't make me magically able to meet all of their needs in a class of 30 while I'm alone. Sometimes I speak more sharply than I'd like. I'm human.

It wasn't anything too complicated though, just to politely tell a DC where to sit or wait a moment while they figured it out.

OP posts: