Page 24 | To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

UndertheCedartree · 2023-12-19T17:25:25+00:00

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her. Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her. Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 18:25

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 16:31

This too. Not mutually exclusive! But inclusive environments are the goal, surely?

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I'm not sure it's possible to be inclusive to every single need at once, but of course yes, the aim should be to have safe, welcoming, and inclusive spaces, with clear boundaries and support where needed.

SkinOffNose · 20/12/2023 18:31

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:24

No, my DD was having a meltdown in reception and the headteacher asked if we wanted to come into her room as it was warmer (and I expect she wanted to give DD some privacy.) Not sure what teacher you're refering to but I think I've already said what everything said. People wonder why I repeat myself but it is because multiple people ask the same thing and then insist I've not answered their question and I'm trying to avoid it or something!

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OP don’t feel like you have to answer every single post or question. You have answered most questions already so people should just read the thread!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:40

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 10:24

So where is this thread going OP?

You say you haven’t complained, don’t require any action to be taken. Is it simply the case that you feel you have to respond to all the comments made by other posters?

I find it extraordinary that you work as a nurse and have worked in schools and haven’t encountered or seen people respond. With less than the best manners, politeness and kindness to others around them. Or, that you can’t imagine that you yourself have never shown an expression that might be viewed as exasperated or used a tone that might not be considered friendly or polite.

The essence of your complaint about the teacher is the way they spoke to your DD. No-one has condoned it, but very many have tried to explain why this could happen. You speak of working in schools and as a nurse, but don’t seem to recognise the working environment where there is so much information and short notice information and so many demands, that actually having everything to hand before a class/patient arrives (such as having the new seating plans in your mind) just isn’t always possible. Pressures and stress at work are a cause of people not always speaking in the best way and it is common.

So, by responding with many many comments about the teacher and their way of speaking to your DD, are you purely feeling the need to respond to posters, but don’t see this as an on-going issue. Is it resolved in your mind? Have you moved on? Your responses are keeping the topic alive. They seem to suggest you want action taken… it surprisingly, few people joining the thread will read 15+ pages. Have you put this to bed or are you getting something yourself from the on-going thread? What is the purpose of it now?

Yes, I do feel if people take the time to comment on my post I should make the effort to respond. I mean you've taken the time to write quite long posts and have asked me questions so yes, I suppose I do feel obligated to respond. I'm probably wrong to feel that, but I do.

I've not said anyway I've not seen people behave like this, of course I have. It's not that I can't imagine that but I would expect to be called out on it. I wouldn't feel I could just excuse it by saying I was tired or stressed. As far as I am aware I've not been impolite in a professional capacity. I fully admit I have privately.

I understand why it could happen as I have said. I understand those things and would never expect someone to have a seating plan in their mind. I know people get stressed, they get flustered. I just don't find being rude helpful in anyway. It just alienates people. I just don't think it would be right for me to be rude especially to a student or patient. So maybe it comes more naturally to me. The thing is, people really are looking to condone the rudeness. They are giving endless lists of why someone might be rude and seem to expect me to say, you know what, I hadn't thought of that, yes, in that case the rudeness was fine. I just don't believe that. And neither do many who have commented on this thread including multiple teachers.

We don't all have to believe the same things. It's ok for someone to disagree with you. Yes, I do have a strong belief of treating others as you wish to be treated. It's pretty important to me. It might not be as important to someone else for all sorts of valid reasons and that's ok.

Yes, it's resolved in my mind. But I do find it interesting learning about others viewpoints whether in support of mine or against. So if other people are interested in discussing the topic then I'm happy to respond.

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WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 18:40

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:24

No, my DD was having a meltdown in reception and the headteacher asked if we wanted to come into her room as it was warmer (and I expect she wanted to give DD some privacy.) Not sure what teacher you're refering to but I think I've already said what everything said. People wonder why I repeat myself but it is because multiple people ask the same thing and then insist I've not answered their question and I'm trying to avoid it or something!

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The reason people ask the same question multiple times, is because most of your replies don’t relate to the posts just above it, but to one’s from hours or days ago. This means the thread doesn’t run as a conversation or chronologically like most threads do. It’s very disconnected. It feels as if OP isn’t interested in a progressing conversation which is based around lots of people contributing together, but simply 1-2-1 conversations with multiple people. And despite the fact that OP often doesn’t reply to comments for more than 12 hours, she still expects people to have read the whole thread and spotted an answer to a similar question 10 pages back.

It seems OP stated her upset in the first post and wants acknowledgement of her feelings and agreement….but not the usual kind of suggestions about next steps or explanation of why this might have happened, that usual threads get. It emerges that she was upset and thinks the way the teacher spoke want professional and she would never speak like that to anyone and struggles to understand that this could and does happen. And essentially that’s it. But it can fill 20 plus pages, with OP filling almost half of those.

it’s very u usual as a thread.

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 18:47

Well I think I’m out of this thread.

OP says the issue is resolved in her mind. As mentioned above, the only thing that seems to remain is that she thinks people shouldn’t be rude or speak harshly. I think we’d all agree that but most people also accept that occasionally it does happen. We might not excuse it but we understand it and know that in a myriad of human interactions at work in busy places, the tone or facial expression or body language might not always be what people would hope for. That’s it.

Hope your DD enjoys her new school Op and it works out well for her. No doubt there will be set backs along the way, but hopefully there wont be too many and when they happen, both of you are able to deal with them and move forward.

Mojolostforever · 20/12/2023 18:49

muggart · 20/12/2023 13:46

The teacher was unprofessional.

This thread demonstrates how low our expectations of teachers are, which is a shame because many of them would not behave like your DCs teacher did.

I have respect for (good) teachers and think they provide a vital service. But in no other service industry is it acceptable to snap at a customer because you're in a bad mood. At least she admitted it, I suppose.

Children are not customers and teaching is not a service industry. Customers don't cause mayhem with the kind of low level disruption caused in classrooms.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:50

Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:37

It is absolutely shocking. I've seen some hideously ableist threads on here but this one is astonishing.

An autistic child managing a secondary school environment is already far more resilient than most NT adults, who have no idea what it's like to cope in an environment that is literally hell for you in every conceivable way. And on top of this to be new to the school. And then have the adults who are meant to be helping you settle in be rude and dismissive to you like that and make the anxiety even worse. Poor, poor child.

All public bodies have a legal duty to ensure their services are designed and delivered in such a way that they do not disadvantage disabled people and make them accessible for them. Schools exist for the sole purpose of helping each child reach their full potential so if even they cannot meet this legal duty in the most basic of ways that cost them nothing except a bit of consideration then it's pretty pathetic frankly. So many posts saying how we should think of the poor teachers, and no concern for the child involved.

Do you tell asthmatic people to just "be more resilient" and stop fussing about inhalers? Should people with peanut allergies just "be more resilient" and eat a bowl of peanuts? It is flabbergasting that people think it's acceptable to dismiss and minimise the needs of an ASD child in this when they'd never dream of doing so for other health conditions.

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I just don't think people really understand how important these things are to those with ASD. And they don't realise that they could see my DD at school most of the time and she'd be coping fine. People trying to make out her needs are just so complex when in all honesty they're not.

I would like teachers to recognise that manners cost nothing and they can make such a difference to an ASD child.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:54

Chipsahoyagain · 20/12/2023 10:37

I like the way the answer to a teacher being rude to a SEN DC is that the DC must be moved out of mainstream education rather than teachers always being polite!

But teachers signed up to teach. Not to manage all these additional scenarios that they now have to do. It's not fair on anyone - the child or the teacher. Can you imagine having 29 kids in your care, having to provide them an education, then remember and manage each and every detail of these kids on top, and be cheery and bright through all of it. They are human and sometimes will make a mistake. You say it's the first time this has happened so the school can't be all that bad.

Yes, I can because I've done it. It isn't so very hard to be polite, imo. And it's not as if secondary schools don't have Learning support departments to help. But yes, we all make mistakes.

And I've said how fantastic the school is.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:57

Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:45

Teaching involves teaching other humans. These humans will not be robots and will need to be taught in a variety of ways to teach them successfully. So yes, it absolutely is the teacher's job to provide a suitable learning environment that takes into account that actual people they are teaching otherwise those people will not be able to learn and therefore the teacher is failing to do their job.

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I'm not sure a teacher can just pick and choose who to teach so they don't have to deal with ND kids. How would that even work?

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:00

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 11:05

You sound extremely sensible OP, and the posters having a go clearly have no clue how difficult and stressful it is to have a secondary aged child struggling to attend and access school, whilst trying to keep a job. I’m in a similar situation and I think you’re doing a fantastic job.

Some posters here seem to have no idea how the Equality Act and inclusion works, or to understand that autistic meltdown is a neurological event due to sensory overload and not a behavioural issue.

It can be really tough can't it? I just hope some teachers can take on board a few things as I've tried to take on board suggestions too.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:09

Boomboom22 · 20/12/2023 11:10

So the op is a nurse. And has been a teacher. I do not buy for a second that most nurses are polite, have you ever been in a hospital?
The head having a word is quite a big deal, much much more than extremely rude nurses ever get, un fact nurses are usually defended when laughing very loudly at all hours, ignoring buzzers, outright ignoring anyone they walk past. People are threatened / scared of not getting any treatment at all if they complain.
And still it's not clear what is wrong with a science teacher appropriately asking a new student to wait to allocate a seat and even going so far as to apologise for snapping and explaining they are in a bad mood! Teachers must be smiley friendly robots but nurses are perfectly allowed to be sullen, in fact it appears to be a prerequisite. Not nurses at the Dr's, they see you 1-1 so are much better at appearing at least to care.

Yes, I've been in a hospital! 😂

If a member of my staff were rude to a patient I'd have a word. It's usually HCAs that answer the buzzers. A nurse may walk past you because they are doing the meds round or needing to do some time critical treatment. I'm sorry if you've had a negative experience. I wouldn't tolerate anyone being threatened with no treatment! I've never experienced anyone doing that. If you've experienced that I'm very sorry for you.

But please read what I said. The science teacher did not ask a new student to wait to allocate a seat nor did they apologise.

And my expectation of a teacher to be polite is the same as my expectation for all of my nurses to be polite. I'm happy you find us practice nurses much better! My team certainly care.

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Sherrystrull · 20/12/2023 19:10

Why wasn't the LSA with your DC? They were supporting a different child you assume. They should have told that child to wait and supported your dc so the teacher could teach the class. That's the job of the LSA.

What did the teacher actually say?

Sherrystrull · 20/12/2023 19:13

All these smug poster telling teachers to learn more about SEND. I understand clearly about all of the needs in my class. It doesn't make me magically able to meet all of their needs in a class of 30 while I'm alone. Sometimes I speak more sharply than I'd like. I'm human.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:15

cardibach · 20/12/2023 11:12

@UndertheCedartree if the LSA didn't go to the head and you didn't complain how did this meeting where everyone was looking at each other and saying the teacher snapped happen?
You said the teacher admitted snapping and implied that was in a meeting then later suggested she said this to the class. As a teacher I am aware of times I've been a bit flustered by one of the myriad things already outlined here and will say to a class 'sorry if I'm a bit snappy' in case it comes out in my voice. It doesn't mean I think I've actually snapped. Teenagers will often say, for eg, that you've shouted at them when you've made a criticism in a normal voice so I'm aware they often perceive things differently (particularly the ND ones) and I try to preempt that.
If the teacher didn't ask your DD to wait to be seated what did she actually say? You haven't said.

It wasn't a meeting, it was just that my DD and I were sitting in reception and her LSA came down to get her. DD went into meltdown and the headteacher invited us into her office as it was warmer and probably to get her out of a public area. The headteacher spoke to DD about why she was so overwhelmed and DD told her. No what I said was she told the class she was in a bad mood, not that she admitted snapping.

I have said multiple times now. My DD asked where she should sit and the teacher snapped 'I don't know!'.

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Boomboom22 · 20/12/2023 19:17

I find this idea you have of an lsa supporting multiple children at secondary quite strange. As a secondary teacher the only lsa we have are 1-1 and even then they don't come to all classes. There are no class ta's in secondary so the lsa only responsibility is your dd.

And the only thing the teacher said was I don't know. She didn't know. She then even apologised, by saying she was in a bad mood. You don't have to say every word out loud to make your meaning clear and that was clearly an explanation.

Regarding the look, I think its more likely that was about you and your daughter than about the science teacher. Going by this thread you are like a dog with a bone about perceived manners. Still very unclear what is wrong with saying you don't know and then placing when everyone is seated, seems eminently reasonable.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:17

brickastley · 20/12/2023 11:24

People saying mainstream isn't for her are probably, sadly, right. It's not the place because they cannot provide everything the DD needs in terms of support - but, there isn't another option. The problem is, as always; funding, resources, etc. There isn't somewhere else for the DD to go, specialised schools generally don't have lots of spaces for kids who need some support. If you don't need all of the support you won't be getting into a specialist school, and even if she did it would probably be detrimental in many ways.

I had to take my DD out of school because she fell in between the 2 and there was no suitable place for her.

I'm sorry to hear that. I believe this school can meet my DD's needs and I hope I'm right.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:19

ntmdino · 20/12/2023 11:26

You do know that meltdowns (and shutdowns) are involuntary, don't you? It's not a childish tantrum, it's a neurological reaction.

And why can't she go through school (and the rest of her life) wearing ear defenders (or noise-cancelling headphones)? I do whenever I'm out of the house, and it hasn't hampered me in the slightest.

Honestly, it really sounds like your assessment of your own knowledge on the subject is at odds with the reality of it.

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I completely agree, such a bizarre post.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:22

Mojolostforever · 20/12/2023 11:33

for the record I didn't make a complaint about this teacher. The head teacher looked into what had happened and made the judgement that the teachers behaviour was unacceptable.

How did the head teacher know what happened? Was she in the lesson at the time?

If not, then someone must have said something.

Well yes, my DD did, the LSA did and the teacher did when the Head spoke to them.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:24

Chickenfeed67 · 20/12/2023 11:40

Again, OP, how can you know the LSA was dealing with another child? Why are you making this assumption?

Because that's what LSAs do in classrooms, they don't just sit around doing nothing. It's like me asking why would you assume a teacher would be teaching in a classroom?

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:27

Christmasbrie · 20/12/2023 11:43

This thread is wild! It seems like the headteacher rightly or wrongly acknowledged that the teacher was grumpy and has resolved to ensure it doesn't happen again. What do you really want from this thread OP? Of course it's a shame DD missed her Christmas lunch, you've attributed her missing it to an event the day before which has been addressed rather than the overwhelming nature of a day in pyjamas and first time using the dinner hall and are now just wasting time trying to justify yourself to strangers on the Internet.

And what's your excuse for not only wasting your time reading my thread but wasting more time writing a post! 😂 Noone is forcing you to be part of this thread if it's such a waste of time!!

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:29

CoffeeCantata · 20/12/2023 11:46

Sad, yes, in the way things turned out for your daughter, but surely she will have to get used to this kind of thing. Teachers (I was one) are professionals, but they're also human and may sometimes show a bit of exasperation. It was unfortunate but I don't think you should load blame on to the teacher (you don't know what the circs were exactly) and as pps have said, your daughter will need to build resilience - things won't always be optimal.

Good thing she's got resilience in bucket loads then! I assume you know a meltdown isn't caused by lack of resilience?

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:33

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 12:09

People have no clue, OP, and are being extremely ableist here. Ignore them.

‘Can’t go through secondary school wearing ear defenders and having meltdowns’ has to be the most ableist comment I’ve ever heard. On a par with ‘can’t go through secondary school limping and wearing callipers’ .

I wear ear plugs out and about. I had regular meltdowns into adulthood until I was able to regulate sensory input. I have accommodations in the workplace. The singe thing I want to teach my autistic dc earlier than j learnt it is to advocate for themselves and meet their autistic needs.

Asking an autistic person not to be autistic is unacceptable.

I know, it's basically saying she can't go through 5 years of school being autistic! Well she went through Primary being autistic and she'll go through Secondary being autistic!

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:36

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 12:12

You’re not alone, OP. There are lots of us feeling sad because our autistic dc aren’t able to access the fun stuff this week. Which is ok if they don’t mind missing it but often they do. They want to join in but also can’t deal with it. It sounds like your dd could have managed it if the teacher hadn’t snapped at her and pushed her into meltdown. So YANBU to be annoyed and frustrated that the teacher doesn’t understand the effects of her snapping, and sad for your dd missing the dinner.

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Thank you. I can feel particularly hard at this time of year, can't it? DD cried a lot yesterday thinking about all her friends having fun without her. Things have been so tough and I just wanted her to have that one thing 😥

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:37

Sartre · 20/12/2023 12:17

Was the teacher supposed to wake her up so she could have the dinner? I’d imagine the teacher thought leaving her to rest was the kindest solution.

Yes, they did the right thing in the circumstances.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 19:41

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 12:21

You are still stuck on this despite the numerous posts explaining how hard teachers lives are and that we all have off days?
Have you never snapped or behaved slightly less than ideally?

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Yes and despite my posts saying I used to be a teacher, I know what it's like and that we all have off days. And yes, I have snapped at my partner and my DC. We just have to agree to disagree. It's ok to not agree about everything!

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