Page 23 | To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

UndertheCedartree · 2023-12-19T17:25:25+00:00

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her. Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her. Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

Jacfrost · 20/12/2023 16:24

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:07

It's interesting that the teachers find the Head very supportive. She's been great with a difficult situation of one of my friends.

I wasn't involved in any 'looks', other teachers weren't involved in any 'looks', I just thought I saw something pass between the LSA and Head like maybe this wasn't the first time this had happened. I could have been wrong as it was very chaotic at the time. There were certainly no 'looks' about how dreadful the teachers was!!

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It's often thought that autistic people can't pick up on social cues but actually, they can be excellent at pattern recognition. My DD is quick to notice microexpressions. If you think you saw a look, you're probably spot on.

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 16:31

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 15:29

Or proper SEN support can be provided and stop expecting teachers to be everything to everyone.

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This too. Not mutually exclusive! But inclusive environments are the goal, surely?

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:34

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 09:04

‘…she told us what caused the meltdown. It’s really quite straightforward’

Quite possibly not. Again, not justifying the teacher, but pointing out that things are often not straightforward but complex. The perception of your DD of events and ability to know or understand all the other things happening in the room or what the teacher was dealing with before the lesson or during, is quite simply limited.

I think the HT who looked into this and is responding to this, will absolutely know how complex things are. They won’t be purely looking at ‘snapping’ as described by your DD and seeing the bigger picture of what had happened before the lesson for your DD and also all the other things the teacher was dealing with that day. They won’t be excusing and justifying what happened, and they will be looking t how things can be better in future, but they also won’t be hanging the teacher out to dry about this or dwelling on it in an excessive way. Every day in schools, incidents like this happen. Things don’t run perfectly or smoothly. Good schools listen and take on board and try to improve, but also have to remain realistic about the implications of stretched resources and the fact that the needs of thousands of students have to be met.

Of course, your DD is your concern and not the other thousands in the school. Of course your DDs plan and what’s happening to her day-to-day is your focus. And the school is focusing on it too….along with however many over plans they need to put in place, communicate and implement with the hundreds of staff involved. Things are complex. On a basic level, an individual incident might seem simple and straightforward and possibly on a micro level, it is, but it’s also part if something much bigger that’s going on and you can’t ignore or pretend the bigger stuff isn’t there. That’s where some kind of perspective is needed. Simply saying over and over again ‘speaking unprofessionally isn’t acceptable’ or ‘it shouldn’t happen’ doesn’t remove those bigger things or remove the pressures that people are under which result in them sometimes showing an exasperated expression, or using poorly-chosen words, or an unhelpful tone, or not quite having prepped for something in the best way. And I get that these things impact certain children much more and work must be done to improve them. It must. But at the same time, knowing that the pressures of teaching 300 children, not knowing what had just happened for that teacher in the previous lesson or earlier in the day or whatever maybe gives some context to the fact people don’t always do exactly what the best m ideal or most professional thing might be.

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My DD didn't need to know all those things. She knew how the teacher made her feel when she was rude to her and she knew that was the reason she got so anxious on the way to/at school. When I have a meltdown I can say what the reason is too. Also knowing DD I would have known it was that incident that caused it even if she hadn't told me.

And yes, I know all that. Why would she hang her out to dry?

There aren't thousands in her school - it's a small school. And I'm not saying the incident was simple but knowing what caused it was. And I already have that context hence why I spoke to my DD about it the way I did and why I didn't complain.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:36

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 09:09

According to many on here that shouldn't be expected

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The point is she's an adult so would be expected to have developed more resilience than a DC.

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WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 16:39

OP how are you choosing which comments by people to respond to?

You sometimes seem to go back to comments people made yesterday or this morning and other times to things s people have said just now….leaping around the thread.

Are you really wanting to just keep talking and talking rather than to progress this in some way? You say the same things over and over in response to comments people have made at all different times. When people ask a sensible and rational question to clarify things, you often don’t answer. You don’t acknowledge points people make.

Is this just because you want to talk and talk and talk.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:40

tomatoontoast · 20/12/2023 09:09

YANBU to be sad your daughter missed the Christmas dinner.

YABU to put all the blame on the teacher. You were there in the morning when she was having a meltdown and you brought her to school when she was getting distressed. More time should have been spent trying to calm the meltdown.

It might have been better to bring her home instead of her having falling asleep at the school. It's a bit shit to have just left her there.

How much time should I have spent calming her down then? Why was it shit to leave my DD in the Learning support centre when she had calmed down? I mean I thought I was supposed to teach her resilience but now I should have taken her home when she was ok to stay?

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:46

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 09:14

Good point Devonshire gal.

I think it’s right that these things are disappointing…..but to expect that they will never happen is simply unrealistic. There will be more of this stuff to come. Knowing and expecting it isn’t to justify it, but to prepare both DD and also OP for the fact it will and strategies to manage it.

As a parent, OP needs to learn how to deal with and respond to and manage how she feels when these things happen. Her reaction can lead to her being devastated by events such as those yesterday, or something quite different.

Given she’s had life with a ND child for over a decade now, I guess this roller coaster of emotions and dealing with other people who dont always understand, isn’t new?? Adjusting and learning to manage your own feelings about it is a process and I’d have thought that was underway already for a number of years.

OP, I hope I can ask this without you being offended…..are you ND yourself? Navigating the world of education with a ND child is really difficult for anyone, but for a parent who is also ND even more tricky. I can see how difficult that might be.

I'm not offended and I've already said that I'm autistic myself.

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SkinOffNose · 20/12/2023 16:49

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 15:59

I agree, it just isn't a line I would ever cross. I don't snap at students or patients or colleagues no matter how tired I am at the end of a long shift.

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I have worked as an nhs doctor for thirty years and hand on heart have never snapped at a patient, colleague or relative. I have felt incredibly irritated inside and had quite negative thoughts, but I would not show it simply because it is damn unprofessional. Of course I am human and at home, I snap at my husband and kids. But it is absolutely unacceptable in my job role and I would bite my tongue. I would not snap at patients ever.

I’m not sure I can accept this reason that teachers are exhausted after a long term. For various cover reasons I have not had a week off work since August. I am absolutely shattered and can tell that I’m feeling more irritable. That does not give me the excuse to snap at anyone.

According to some on here that makes me superhuman. I actually don’t think snapping at work is as common as some teachers here are saying. I can think of very few colleagues who behave in an unprofessional way like that. When my dad was a patient in hospital, I saw nurses being rude and snappy. That was unacceptable too.

my kids have now left school, but I always remember them saying that the best teachers never had to shout. There may be something in that.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 16:56

Kangaboo · 20/12/2023 09:20

@UndertheCedartree so you’ve been asked a few times but haven’t answered, what are your thoughts on the learning support staff letting your daughter sleep all morning/through lunch? Have you spoken to them about what will happen if a similar scenario/meltdown occurs?

I remember being surprised at how my children were spoken to by secondary staff, it’s a big step up from the nurturing primary school environment for everyone. It’s also a step towards adulthood and I appreciate some people find that transition harder than others but it is the path your dad is now on.

Am surprised at pyjamas at secondary most boys I know would not entertain that! Or for some even have pyjamas!

I've already answered this. She didn't sleep all morning as her meltdown happened first. Also lunch was early. She slept for about an hour, then I picked her up. It was fine for them to let her sleep. Not much else they could do. I've not spoken to them since, no. I've honestly not seen a difference in how they talk to DD. It is a big step up though and DD has done brilliantly in managing it.

It is a girls school. Most were in pyjamas but some had Christmas jumpers or just normal uniform.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:01

Kangaboo · 20/12/2023 09:23

So the teacher may have been the catalyst but the cause of her missing the lunch was the learning support team not waking her? But you are directing your anger / upset solely at the teacher.

They tried waking her but she was too sleepy. She was too sleepy because of the meltdown, the meltdown happened because of the incident with the teacher. So yes, I was upset about that, not angry, though.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:06

JVC24601 · 20/12/2023 09:25

What you probably don’t realise is that seating plans aren’t in teachers’ heads- schools use online systems now to save and edit seating plans. She won’t have memorised the future seat of a new student she hasn’t met yet- she has probably 300 other pupils, and from my experience I can almost guarantee she didn’t know your daughter was turning up that lesson.

So she will have been logging in, signing in to ClassCharts or whatever system they use, finding the class, and then be able to tell your daughter where she is in the plan.

Teachers don’t expect parents to know all the ins and outs of what is involved every lesson, but we do expect parents to have a little faith in us doing our best.

I assume she has some way to access this seating plan otherwise what is the point? I didn't expect her to memorise it! As you say she could access it and then would be able to tell my DD where to sit. There was no need for the rudeness she could have just told my DD to hang on a sec while she accessed the seating plan. Some parents have been/are teachers so do have a clue what happens. And yes, as I've already said I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

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Mirabai · 20/12/2023 17:08

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 14:44

Why would it not be relevant to neurotypical children?

We’re talking about neuroinclusive environments here, which absolutely can be done. Unfortunately the reality is often different due to institutional practice and also funding.

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Because sometimes NT children need a severe telling off in a way that would not be appropriate for ND children.

Neuroinclusive can be done for sure - but much easier to implement in small schools with small classes. I just don’t know how that would even work at a National level with schools of 1-2000 kids with no funding and no money for extra teacher training or indeed extra teachers.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 20/12/2023 17:12

Because sometimes NT children need a severe telling off in a way that would not be appropriate for ND children.

These days teachers would probably get in trouble for delivering anything resembling 'a severe telling off' to any student, NT or otherwise.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:19

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 09:43

@UndertheCedartree

You seem focused on the concept that the teacher was rude and you can’t seem to appreciate any nuance around why she might have spoken to your daughter in the way she did. You keep saying there is no excuse for being rude even though numerous people have explained how it is unreasonable to expect your daughter to always be spoken to politely by staff at school because those staff are human.

You say you are a nurse and are not ‘allowed’ to be rude at work. Well, I’m sure all of us who have had the misfortune to be in hospital have an anecdote of a rude or uncaring nurse we’ve encountered. I certainly have! So you have got a rather unrealistic view of the behaviours displayed by members not only of the teaching profession, but also of your own. Both are stressful and emotional jobs that sometimes push those doing them into situations where they lose their cool. That is the reality. I think we can all forgive the occasional lapse of professionalism under pressure.

It’s still unclear what you want or expect going forward. You have mentioned wanting an apology. So why not arrange to meet with this teacher so you can get one? This teacher will be with your daughter all year, so resolving this situation and moving forward positively is in everyone’s best interests. Rather than discussing the teacher with other staff at the school and with strangers on the internet, have a conversation with her directly and give her the opportunity to set things to rights. You have made a lot of assumptions about her and I don’t think that’s particularly kind or fair. Respect goes both ways.

It's not that I can't appreciate nuance, it's just that I don't think there is any excuse for rudeness. If I was rude at work I'd get pulled up on it. If my staff are rude I'd talk to them. That's just my honest opinion. It doesn't mean I don't know it happens or reasons why it might happen, I just don't agree with it. It's like you think if you give me enough reasons I'll agree it's ok. I have high standards, that's the way I am. And the school suits our family as they have high standards too. I'm not saying there's anything wrong if you have a different opinion or whatever. That's just mine.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:25

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 09:43

@UndertheCedartree

You seem focused on the concept that the teacher was rude and you can’t seem to appreciate any nuance around why she might have spoken to your daughter in the way she did. You keep saying there is no excuse for being rude even though numerous people have explained how it is unreasonable to expect your daughter to always be spoken to politely by staff at school because those staff are human.

You say you are a nurse and are not ‘allowed’ to be rude at work. Well, I’m sure all of us who have had the misfortune to be in hospital have an anecdote of a rude or uncaring nurse we’ve encountered. I certainly have! So you have got a rather unrealistic view of the behaviours displayed by members not only of the teaching profession, but also of your own. Both are stressful and emotional jobs that sometimes push those doing them into situations where they lose their cool. That is the reality. I think we can all forgive the occasional lapse of professionalism under pressure.

It’s still unclear what you want or expect going forward. You have mentioned wanting an apology. So why not arrange to meet with this teacher so you can get one? This teacher will be with your daughter all year, so resolving this situation and moving forward positively is in everyone’s best interests. Rather than discussing the teacher with other staff at the school and with strangers on the internet, have a conversation with her directly and give her the opportunity to set things to rights. You have made a lot of assumptions about her and I don’t think that’s particularly kind or fair. Respect goes both ways.

I've not mentioned wanting an apology. What would the teacher have to apologise to me for? I just said it would be nice if she apologised to DD. I haven't discussed the teacher with other staff at the school. I honestly don't know what this opportunity to set things to rights would involve? She_s got nothing to set right with me? I'm also confused what assumptions I've made? I suggested she may have been having a bad day which I don't think is a bad thing to say.

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WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 17:26

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:06

I assume she has some way to access this seating plan otherwise what is the point? I didn't expect her to memorise it! As you say she could access it and then would be able to tell my DD where to sit. There was no need for the rudeness she could have just told my DD to hang on a sec while she accessed the seating plan. Some parents have been/are teachers so do have a clue what happens. And yes, as I've already said I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

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‘I assume…otherwise what is the point’. Well, yes you might think this, but To be honest, in schools today, you can’t really assume anything. You cannot assume info has reached everyone it should reach, or that everyone has had a chance to read it or implement it for all kinds of reasons.

Parents sometimes forget that a teacher might see 300 children in a week and receive emails about adjustments needed by dozens of them based on pastoral issues, additional needs, friendship issues and all kinds of other things each week.

If you’re someone who has worked in schools and as a nurse, you’d know this….the deluge of info, often arriving very last minute….the fact that things and people are sprung upon you with little or no warning, or even when you’ve had warning, you might simply have forgotten due to info overload.

So, DD turns up and teacher either hasn’t been told or has forgotten or whatever…..so needs to access the seating plan and find where she is to sit….has to download it or find the right email….and at the same time, 4 other children are trying to tell her something, and she has to submit the register within 2 mins or someone will be after her, and another urgent message is flashing on the screen, and there is a loud noise outside in the corridor and…and ….

Most if the time most teachers manage to respond calmly and pleasantly. Occasionally they might sound a bit stressed or stretched or even irritated. Not ideal. Understandable to most people that this might happen.

When a child is ND in mainstream school and has additional needs but there is no real funding or resourcing, it is their needs that often get hit. They are the least able to cope with the changes in routine, stretched and stressed teachers and actions that schools have to take to deal with a shortage of staff and other complications which every day require difficult decisions to be made. Things don’t run smoothly. Children of all types see the consequences of these funding cuts and consequences. And to be honest, it will get worse.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 17:31

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 09:56

Your posts are increasingly contradictory and confusing.

If you ‘forgive’ the teacher and know she will make amends next lesson, then why make such a big deal out of it? Why keep insisting that she was rude and unprofessional if you claim to appreciate that she was probably knackered and under pressure?

The way you keep referring back to posts from the thread at random is also very confusing. It doesn’t help the conversation when you keep jumping back to posts out of the order and context in which they were written.

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What big deal have I made of it? I've not complained, I've not said anything about it. I've just had a vent on an onymous forum! I honestly feel you've made a bigger deal of it than I have! 😂

Being tired doesn't mean that snapping at my DD wasn't rude. I mean come on! So people can go around being as rude as they like then say, I was tired therefore I wasn't rude atall!

I'm going through posts in exact order.

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DiaryOfaTTCer · 20/12/2023 17:34

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BlackeyedSusan · 20/12/2023 17:51

43ontherocksporfavor · 19/12/2023 20:49

This is why so many teachers are at breaking point . Parents want bespoke education in a mainstream setting.

Edited

Parents want schools to fulfil their legal duties as laid out in the Sendcop.

And adults to be resilient enough not to snap at disabled children.

Americano75 · 20/12/2023 17:56

The teacher was out of order, I know teaching is a stressful job but an 11 year old child asking you a simple question does not warrant that kind of response.

Americano75 · 20/12/2023 18:08

And OP, I hope your daughter is OK. I'm not looking forward to my 10 year old starting secondary myself.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:11

DiaryOfaTTCer · 20/12/2023 10:00

How do you know that the teacher 'has a reputation for being rude'? You've mentioned that a few times.

I don't know the teacher has a reputation for being rude all I said was I saw a look pass between the LSA and Head when DD told the Head the teacher had been rude to her. It seemed as if it didn't necessarily come as a suprise to them. However, I've been quite clear I could be wrong about that.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:14

Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:11

That's what "pupil passports" are for. No member of staff should be working in a classroom even temporarily without having reviewed a basic summary of the needs of any children in the classroom with SEN.

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I do think this is best practice. And is all flagged up on the register at my Dd's school.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:20

zingally · 20/12/2023 10:16

Not the science teachers fault.

It sounds like what happened was a very normal part of a secondary school day.

It sounds more like your DD has just had a culmination of a difficult week (surely this was her first week, as this was her first science lesson - a subject they have multiple times a week) in an unfamiliar place, and just being "end of term tired". Plus a very strange time of year to change schools. Everyone knows the last week before Christmas break is usually very off timetable and full of unusual events. Personally, I'd have kept her off and started fresh in January.

The whole "missing Christmas lunch" is not something to get upset about here. Concentrate on having a restful, quiet Christmas instead.

As I've explained it was her 4th week. They have Biology once a fortnight, Chemistry once a fortnight and Physics once a fortnight. This was the first time with this teacher. She didn't change schools she just started her secondary school as I had to go through the appeal process. And no, the attendance officer wouldn't have been happy for her to just start in January!

Thank you, we will do.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 18:24

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 10:21

So it just happened that the headteacher was waiting with the LSA when you dropped your dd off?
What did the teacher actually say?

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No, my DD was having a meltdown in reception and the headteacher asked if we wanted to come into her room as it was warmer (and I expect she wanted to give DD some privacy.) Not sure what teacher you're refering to but I think I've already said what everything said. People wonder why I repeat myself but it is because multiple people ask the same thing and then insist I've not answered their question and I'm trying to avoid it or something!

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