Page 21 | To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

UndertheCedartree · 2023-12-19T17:25:25+00:00

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her. Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her. Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

CHRIS003 · 20/12/2023 13:45

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 23:11

This is her 4th week at the school.

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As a parent of an adult son with asd - I have been through all of this in the past.
Just wondering what the teachers on here think of the following.

Campaigning for the inclusion of special needs modules in teacher training.

Maybe work placements for student teachers in asd units etc. Also not just for asd - training sessions for adhd / dyslexia / children with medical or social needs and how education is affected.

CCTV in the classroom? Would it not solve a lot of parent teacher he said/ she said debates if a teacher could record each lesson or in lessons where there are particular issues ? Would it not save a lot of time / stress parents complaints etc. If you could just check back on a recording and see who did what ?

muggart · 20/12/2023 13:46

The teacher was unprofessional.

This thread demonstrates how low our expectations of teachers are, which is a shame because many of them would not behave like your DCs teacher did.

I have respect for (good) teachers and think they provide a vital service. But in no other service industry is it acceptable to snap at a customer because you're in a bad mood. At least she admitted it, I suppose.

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 13:53

@muggart well then everyone who occasionally has a bad/stressful day and accidentally isn't as perfect as they should be is unprofessional. I doubt she set out to upset the child, I imagine she feels bad, she apologised, there isn't much more she can do. No teacher can completely prevent this happening.

Mirabai · 20/12/2023 13:55

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 13:27

This is a huge deal for many autistic children. Mine tend to think they are being told off, and it causes issues such as meltdown, not sleeping, school avoidance, panic.

Ideally, whole class teaching should be neuro-inclusive. There are no disadvantages to neurotypical children and it ensures that undiagnosed neurodivergent children aren’t traumatised.

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Not sure if that’s realistic. It would mean ultimately that naughty disruptive NT children would not be reprimanded or reprimanded in a way that’s only relevant to ND children.

Happilyobtuse · 20/12/2023 13:58

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:33

I do teach my DD to cope with situations. She already coped with countless things. She has coped with mainstream school for 6 years so far so sure she can continue to cope. There is no specialist provision for DC like her anyway.

I like the way the answer to a teacher being rude to a SEN DC is that the DC must be moved out of mainstream education rather than teachers always being polite!

Considering she's managed all this time I'm sure she can continue to manage!

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See no one should be rude to anyone in a perfect world. Unfortunately people are rude all the time, either they are stressed, tired, moody etc. So the teacher should definitely be advised but blaming her for something that took place the next day is a bit of a stretch. Instead maybe we need to teach our children that no one is perfect and we all make mistakes. The teacher didn’t mean to hurt your feelings and she is sorry. It is more likely that this lack of routine and change to pyjamas upset her more that the teacher’s behaviour from the previous day. Did she say the teacher upsetting her the day before was the reason or are you assuming that?! Also if it is the reason you really need to teach her better coping mechanisms. Whether SEN or not we all need to be able to forgive each other for mistakes. None of us is perfect, we can only try. Also vilifying the teacher will not help in the large scheme of things, we live in a very imperfect world and we can’t expect everyone to follow a script on how to interact with our child.

ntmdino · 20/12/2023 14:07

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 13:36

@ntmdino I would be surprised if the child was 'specifically and uniquely disadvantaged' deliberately though. We really do expect teachers to be super human sometimes.

I didn't say it was deliberate. It was, however, what happened because of the teacher's conduct.

As I said...imagine the same circumstances, but involving a child with a physical disability. In that case, whether it was deliberate or not, there would be outrage - and rightly so. And yet here, in this thread, many people are saying that the autistic child needs to suck it up and learn to deal with it - which is like saying "walk it off" to a child with one leg.

Mirabai · 20/12/2023 14:10

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:28

Exactly, this provision doesn't exist.

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It does but it’s expensive. The last Labour government pursued a policy of closing special schools and educating SEN students in mainstream schools. Around 100 schools closed across the country. It was Ruth Kelly who oversaw this and then sent her own SEN son to a private school. (I’m a Labour voter so I have no political axe to grind I just thought it was a disastrous misguided policy and still do).

The only alternative if there are not funds for a private school is homeschooling.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:20

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 22:47

I don't think you can comment if you've never taught a class of teenagers. You don't get it and you never will get it. Our jobs are completely, utterly different, and contain totally different stressors and pressures.

It is not unprofessional to snap at a child occasionally. It is human. No one is saying that it is OK that the teacher 'took her mood out' on a child (which apparently was what the teacher admitted to her Head and the Head repeated this to the parent - all of which I find very hard to believe, I must say) and that it's recommended that teachers go around snapping at children. All people like me - who actually do have experience of teaching teenagers, unlike you (respectfully - I wouldn't presume to tell you how to deal with toddlers in a professional setting, as I have no experience of doing it) - are saying is that teachers do sometimes drop the ball, teachers aren't always given the information they need to support SEN kids properly, and that teachers are human, are juggling multiple demands on their time and energy, and sometimes they react badly to a situation and regret it later. We don't need to hang, draw and quarter them when they do. What we can do is take a step back, appreciate they do a very stressful job, and cut them a bit of slack. And hopefully teach our kids to do the same.

I might add that we don't actually know what this teacher supposedly said to the OP's child, as the OP has never stated this clearly. It seems like she was simply told to wait in a snappy tone while the teacher worked out where to put her in the seating plan. I don't think that's the crime of the century. In the moment it was upsetting for the OP's daughter, and that's regrettable of course, but it was hardly done with malicious intent - more in a moment of being flustered at the beginning of a lesson when she had a million other things to deal with.

I'm very impressed that you are the model of perfection all the time at work. I certainly am not. I admit that. I've been working for 20+ years and worked with hundreds of colleagues in that time. I've never met someone who didn't once lose their cool on the job. You are certainly one in a million and I applaud you.

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No, I didn't say that I said that the teacher said to the class she was in a bad mood.

And I have absolutely said nothing about hanging, drawing or quartering. I can say I believe the teacher didn't act appropriately and at the same time appreciate she may be stressed, tired, having an off day. None of that is unique to teaching although I know teaching is a tough job. And I absolutely do teach my Dc to give the benefit of the doubt when appropriate.

Look, I'm a nurse, I'm tired, stressed, overwhelmed, am autistic and have 2 autistic Dc and I'm a single mum. I'm allowed to have a vent on MN! There's nothing so terrible about saying a teacher did something wrong which affected my DD. You're taking this too personally inho.

If you have read my posts I have already clearly said the teacher said 'I don't know'. I've said that more than once and explained it left my DD not knowing what to do. She at no point asked her to wait while others sat down!

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:30

Whereismycat · 19/12/2023 22:52

OP can I just say GO YOU! Well done for standing up for your DD. My autistic DD is currently home Ed after everything fell apart in year 1. I don’t have the energy to go in to it but suffice to say her needs weren’t being accommodated. Like many other SEN children that are failed by the education system because they don’t fit in. My DD is bright, she is fabulous & she is bloody resilient! I’m sick of these sorts of comments so thank you for taking them on!

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I had to home educate my DS and DD for a bit before she got the place at this school. DS is now doing T levels at college. I've had to fight tooth and nail for both their education's. Good luck to your DD, I'm sure she will go far!

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:33

BewaretheIckabog · 19/12/2023 22:57

The school may seem great but I’d have reservations about a Head Teacher who described a teacher as unprofessional in front of LSA or parents.

No wonder so many teachers want out.

That didn't happen. Not sure if I did write that but it was incorrect if I did. The head teacher saw the situation as incorrectly handled and stepped in to hopefully prevent a repeat.

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adviceneeded1990 · 20/12/2023 14:40

@UndertheCedartree I understand. It just all still seems really unprofessional to me, staff members would never discuss one another’s behaviour in front of a parent at my school let alone with a child in the meeting too! Surely your DD will now be of the opinion that the LSA and HT are on her “side” against her class teachers? I agree with modelling the behaviour you wish to see but if I was that teacher I’d have the Union in speaking to the head teacher regarding the follow up!

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 20/12/2023 14:41

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:20

No, I didn't say that I said that the teacher said to the class she was in a bad mood.

And I have absolutely said nothing about hanging, drawing or quartering. I can say I believe the teacher didn't act appropriately and at the same time appreciate she may be stressed, tired, having an off day. None of that is unique to teaching although I know teaching is a tough job. And I absolutely do teach my Dc to give the benefit of the doubt when appropriate.

Look, I'm a nurse, I'm tired, stressed, overwhelmed, am autistic and have 2 autistic Dc and I'm a single mum. I'm allowed to have a vent on MN! There's nothing so terrible about saying a teacher did something wrong which affected my DD. You're taking this too personally inho.

If you have read my posts I have already clearly said the teacher said 'I don't know'. I've said that more than once and explained it left my DD not knowing what to do. She at no point asked her to wait while others sat down!

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From your own posts@UndertheCedartree
The teacher actually said she was snapping because she was in a bad mood so she said it herself!
The teacher shouldn't have snapped at her or made her wait at the front of the class?
So she did say she was in a bad mood and make her wait?

WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 14:42

Perhapsanorhertimewouldbebetter · 20/12/2023 13:37

I am sorry it's hard for your children, however a teacher must also be able to discipline a class within reason - it actually would be a disadvantage were he/she not able to do that, and learning may suffer.

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Agreed. But they can do that in ways that are neuroinclusive. Autistic children can also be debriefed afterwards.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:43

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 22:59

Who are you to say that the teacher doesn't have basic good manners?

She made an error of judgement and she has admitted to it.

Have you never snapped or been rude to someone in your life, ever?

Would you like your character and professionalism to be judged on that one moment of thoughtlessness?

I've already detailed on this thread an example of the kind of horrific things teachers have to deal with on a daily basis.

You have no idea what the teacher was dealing with to put her in a 'bad mood'. She might have just suffered a bereavement or loss. She might be struggling with financial issues or illness or other family pressures. She might be absolutely exhausted from staying up until 1am to get her reports written and marking done before the end of term. Sometimes you can't find the strength to put your professional face on and the personal breaks through. It happens, it's regrettable, but a little bit of understanding that the teacher is a person would go a long way here in getting you to move past your current attitude of 'teacher = terrible, unprofessional, rude person' which you have maintained throughout this thread, based on one brief interaction with your daughter when she was clearly not at her best.

I'm not saying it's ok that she upset your daughter. But expecting her to have been more compassionate and kind, without extending the same compassion and kindness to her in return, is a little hypocritical.

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Snapping at someone 'I don't know!' when they ask a question perfectly politely is not good manners. I have snapped at my partner and my DC but not at my students, colleagues or patients. For me, that would be crossing a line. I just don't think it's appropriate.

I'm not judging her character and professionalism due to once incident of unprofessional rude behaviour.

I realise you've experienced horrific things and I'm sorry for you, I have too as a teacher and more so as a nurse.

Of course I don't know. Just like she didn't know what my DD may have been dealing with. It cuts both ways. And you don't know what I'm dealing with right now and why I might need a vent.

I absolutely extend compassion and kindness to this teacher in any way I can. That's why I told my DD she may be having a bad day and hopefully she'll have a better day next time. That's why I've not made a complaint about the incident.

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WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 14:44

Mirabai · 20/12/2023 13:55

Not sure if that’s realistic. It would mean ultimately that naughty disruptive NT children would not be reprimanded or reprimanded in a way that’s only relevant to ND children.

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Why would it not be relevant to neurotypical children?

We’re talking about neuroinclusive environments here, which absolutely can be done. Unfortunately the reality is often different due to institutional practice and also funding.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:47

UsingChangeofName · 19/12/2023 22:59

Agree @cansu

Excellent posts by @WombatChocolate

The teacher also knows DD needs extra support at the beginning and end of a class.

I'm puzzled what her LSA was doing. Surely the LSA is employed to support her at the times your dd finds most challenging. Presumably her LSA has been with her for the 3 weeks she has been at the school, and will have read all the paperwork and potentially met you, and got to know your dd. She would surely be aware that beginnings and ends of lessons were a challenging time and should be supporting at that time, as opposed to the teacher who may well have read the information 3 weeks ago, but didn't have it at the forefront of her mind, as opposed to the teacher who has not met her before and obviously have had a whole heap of other things to deal with in between reading the information and meeting her today..

I'm pretty sure the LSA had a million things on her mind and was dealing with another DC at the time. All the other teachers have dealt with it no problem. She stepped in as soon as she could. I may have given the impression DD has an LSA just for her. There is an LSA in all her classes but not just for her.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:50

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 23:02

You're taking this quote out of context.

This comment is in response to a nursery school teacher who said that she has never had a cross word with any of the toddlers she looks after so she can't understand why a secondary school teacher would ever snap at a teenager they teach.

As I say, quite rightly, the two sets of young people come with very different challenges. Expecting a secondary school teacher to always be smiley and cheery while a teenager is telling them to fuck off or throwing a chair at them is a little unreasonable and shows a lack of understanding of the realities of the job.

And I've got plenty of empathy for my ND students. Haven't said anywhere that I don't. I'm not sure why you felt the need to address that comment to me.

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But the point is my DD wasn't throwing a chair etc. Of course that's a completely different and extreme situation. And not one that happens at this school.

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Xmastime2023 · 20/12/2023 14:52

Given that you are also Autistic OP I understand why you are so focused on this, your anxiety must be souring for your DD.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 14:54

EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 23:10

As I say all the other teachers have been brilliant
So far, OP. Inevitably, other staff will make mistakes or have a bad day. That's life. You simply cannot expect impeccable performance (from anyone) all the time.

And equally this teacher, whose position you haven't even started to empathise with, might be brilliant on every other occasion.

I agree with all that and have empathised with the teacher as I've clearly explained multiple times.

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WaitingForMojo · 20/12/2023 14:58

Xmastime2023 · 20/12/2023 14:52

Given that you are also Autistic OP I understand why you are so focused on this, your anxiety must be souring for your DD.

That’s uncalled for. It’s unacceptable to dismiss someone because they are autistic.

The op is making sensible, valid, reasonable points and doesn’t come across as at all anxious to me.

Ableism like this must be souring for any neurodivergent people you come into contact with. There will be many, even if you don’t know it.

Windflower92 · 20/12/2023 15:00

So you say you didn't involve the headteacher but...why was the headteacher talking to you about it? What exactly is the timeline of events here? Have you had a meeting with the headteacher to complain about this teacher without her there?

I'm so glad I left teaching!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 15:00

Chickenfeed67 · 20/12/2023 08:44

This really sounds like the LSA should have been more active - if they were present and doing their job, they should have introduced your daughter to the teacher, not left her to speak to the teacher herself. You presume the LSA was dealing with another child? But you don’t know that.

No, I don't know that, but what else would they have been doing? In the 4 weeks she has been there she has been able to ask the teachers where to sit and there's been no problems so I think the LSA can be forgiven for thinking it would go ok in Science. She wasn't to know the teacher would bite DD's head off.

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WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 15:02

She wasn't to know the teacher would bite DD's head off
So teachers now 'biting her head off'?

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 15:03

EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 23:12

The head teacher did not think this was professional behaviour.

Everyone can agree it was less than ideal.

However, you've decided to make it the actual cause of your DD's meltdown & subsequent missing of the party.

That's both a leap & very unfair.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think DD is in a better position than you to know what caused her meltdown, but if you think you know better, fine.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 15:08

Mariposistaa · 19/12/2023 23:29

Right so this one incident is reflective of the entire education system now is it? The whole school is a minefield of traps just waiting to catch your child out?

The teacher snapped - not ideal but it’s hardly the crime of the year. she hardly hurled insults, yelled, humiliated or swore. Most would bat it off. you cannot expect the whole world to tread on eggshells on the off chance they will come across that 5% or whatever the figure is who cannot cope with it.

Is this aimed at me? I've said nothing about the entire education system?? Nothing about crime of the year? But yes, I do expect courtesy. Manners cost nothing imho.

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