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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

811 replies

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 17:25

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

OP posts:
Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:11

IglesiasPiggl · 19/12/2023 17:45

Sorry your DD missed the lunch, and I understand you feel sad. On the other side, though,mainstream teachers cannot be expected to understand all the nuances of every SEN in their class, on top their daily subject material. Is your DD supported by the school? Perhaps they need to have more direct communication with her teachers. But you will still get substitutes etc who won't be briefed on all this.

That's what "pupil passports" are for. No member of staff should be working in a classroom even temporarily without having reviewed a basic summary of the needs of any children in the classroom with SEN.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:12

Whyyoulyingfor · 19/12/2023 20:43

I’m a teacher. It is not uncommon for a child to show up with no warning or information. I usually ask them to stand to one side so I can think about where to put them. Other than getting them to stand outside what else are you meant to do? I don’t think this teacher has deliberately set out to upset your daughter. The start of the lesson is the most crucial for setting the tone and if students were being noisy/unruly her priority would have been to settle the whole class.

That's fine but the teacher didn't do that. Of course she hasn't deliberately set out to upset her.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:15

MalcolmsMiddle · 19/12/2023 20:43

Nothing factual in your posts can confirm the teacher did this.

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She told the class she was in a bad mood.

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Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:15

MiddleagedBeachbum · 19/12/2023 17:27

That’s part of her learning resilience and how to cope in the world. It doesn’t sound like the teacher did anything wrong and her meltdown this morning seems unrelated.

Disabilities can't be erased by "resilience". Do you tell people in wheelchairs to "just be more resilient and stand up"?

zingally · 20/12/2023 10:16

Not the science teachers fault.

It sounds like what happened was a very normal part of a secondary school day.

It sounds more like your DD has just had a culmination of a difficult week (surely this was her first week, as this was her first science lesson - a subject they have multiple times a week) in an unfamiliar place, and just being "end of term tired". Plus a very strange time of year to change schools. Everyone knows the last week before Christmas break is usually very off timetable and full of unusual events. Personally, I'd have kept her off and started fresh in January.

The whole "missing Christmas lunch" is not something to get upset about here. Concentrate on having a restful, quiet Christmas instead.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:17

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 19/12/2023 20:46

Fuck @EnidSpyton I can't imagine how hard that would have been for you. People constantly expecting robotic perfection from teachers but still emotional connections and complaints straight to head teacher? Who on earth would want to be a teacher?.

I don't expect that and I made no complaint to the head teacher or otherwise.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:19

LdnAnna · 19/12/2023 20:49

You’re not being unreasonable. There is no need to react to that question with a snappily attitude. She could have calmly stated that she didn’t know and politely asked her to wait for a moment.

Starting a new school can feel scary, as can simply entering a new classroom full of people you don’t know. Being met with that response when already feeling anxious can be upsetting. I can understand why it would make her feel anxious about the school in general.

People are quick to defend the teacher but we wouldn’t tolerate other professions speaking to people like that, no matter what kind of mood they're in. Especially to children and/or people with additional needs!

Exactly. To me good manners don't cost anything.

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WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 10:21

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:17

I don't expect that and I made no complaint to the head teacher or otherwise.

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So it just happened that the headteacher was waiting with the LSA when you dropped your dd off?
What did the teacher actually say?

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:23

penjil · 19/12/2023 20:50

Oh my. I'm really not sure a mainstream school is really the place for your daughter.

If she has to have an assistant and wear ear defenders to eat a meal in the school cafeteria it's a bit concerning.

Is all this stress fair on her? Is there another more specialist school she could attend?

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I think you're quite naive if you think this is unusual. She has ear defenders if needed and the assistant to support her with learning to use the canteen initially.

She has up to now coped with mainstream fine. No other school she can attend. And the stress is just life unfortunately.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 10:24

So where is this thread going OP?

You say you haven’t complained, don’t require any action to be taken. Is it simply the case that you feel you have to respond to all the comments made by other posters?

I find it extraordinary that you work as a nurse and have worked in schools and haven’t encountered or seen people respond. With less than the best manners, politeness and kindness to others around them. Or, that you can’t imagine that you yourself have never shown an expression that might be viewed as exasperated or used a tone that might not be considered friendly or polite.

The essence of your complaint about the teacher is the way they spoke to your DD. No-one has condoned it, but very many have tried to explain why this could happen. You speak of working in schools and as a nurse, but don’t seem to recognise the working environment where there is so much information and short notice information and so many demands, that actually having everything to hand before a class/patient arrives (such as having the new seating plans in your mind) just isn’t always possible. Pressures and stress at work are a cause of people not always speaking in the best way and it is common.

So, by responding with many many comments about the teacher and their way of speaking to your DD, are you purely feeling the need to respond to posters, but don’t see this as an on-going issue. Is it resolved in your mind? Have you moved on? Your responses are keeping the topic alive. They seem to suggest you want action taken… it surprisingly, few people joining the thread will read 15+ pages. Have you put this to bed or are you getting something yourself from the on-going thread? What is the purpose of it now?

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:33

Happilyobtuse · 19/12/2023 20:51

Fully agree with you! I think as parents we have to teach our children to cope with situations not expect everyone to know their issues and adjust. If the child has very specific needs and just can’t cope then best to move out of mainstream school. Expecting teachers and other kids to be aware of all these triggers is not going to work realistically. I can’t see how this child is going to manage on a daily basis if this incident which took place the day before upset her so much that she missed her Christmas dinner the next day!

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I do teach my DD to cope with situations. She already coped with countless things. She has coped with mainstream school for 6 years so far so sure she can continue to cope. There is no specialist provision for DC like her anyway.

I like the way the answer to a teacher being rude to a SEN DC is that the DC must be moved out of mainstream education rather than teachers always being polite!

Considering she's managed all this time I'm sure she can continue to manage!

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:35

43ontherocksporfavor · 19/12/2023 20:52

@LdnAnna like what? She was asked the stand and wait to find out where to sit.

Jo, she wasn't asked to stand and wait to be seated.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:37

Thegoodbadandugly · 19/12/2023 21:01

I cannot for the life of me understand why you waited for the busiest noisest day in the canteen to introduce her to the canteen it was always going to produce a meltdown.

Firstly, she didn't make it to the canteen and secondly it wasn't the busiest, noisiest day!

OP posts:
Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:37

carolsandchristmas · 19/12/2023 18:11

Teachers ARE human. But if a new 11 year old girl who I knew was autistic came into my classroom, no matter how stressed or tired I was, I would ensure she felt comfortable and supported. This is not what happened. The opposite in fact.

The ignorance and downright ableism on this thread is disgusting

It is absolutely shocking. I've seen some hideously ableist threads on here but this one is astonishing.

An autistic child managing a secondary school environment is already far more resilient than most NT adults, who have no idea what it's like to cope in an environment that is literally hell for you in every conceivable way. And on top of this to be new to the school. And then have the adults who are meant to be helping you settle in be rude and dismissive to you like that and make the anxiety even worse. Poor, poor child.

All public bodies have a legal duty to ensure their services are designed and delivered in such a way that they do not disadvantage disabled people and make them accessible for them. Schools exist for the sole purpose of helping each child reach their full potential so if even they cannot meet this legal duty in the most basic of ways that cost them nothing except a bit of consideration then it's pretty pathetic frankly. So many posts saying how we should think of the poor teachers, and no concern for the child involved.

Do you tell asthmatic people to just "be more resilient" and stop fussing about inhalers? Should people with peanut allergies just "be more resilient" and eat a bowl of peanuts? It is flabbergasting that people think it's acceptable to dismiss and minimise the needs of an ASD child in this when they'd never dream of doing so for other health conditions.

Chipsahoyagain · 20/12/2023 10:37

I like the way the answer to a teacher being rude to a SEN DC is that the DC must be moved out of mainstream education rather than teachers always being polite!

But teachers signed up to teach. Not to manage all these additional scenarios that they now have to do. It's not fair on anyone - the child or the teacher. Can you imagine having 29 kids in your care, having to provide them an education, then remember and manage each and every detail of these kids on top, and be cheery and bright through all of it. They are human and sometimes will make a mistake. You say it's the first time this has happened so the school can't be all that bad.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:38

Jacfrost · 19/12/2023 21:05

OP has said it was y7 only. It sounds like the Xmas lunch days at DD's school which are done by year group on different days. It's far less overwhelming than a normal lunchtime - everybody gets their food and then is sat down eating at the same time...much easier than the constant stream of all year groups coming and going of their own accord throughout lunch

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Yes, exactly this.

OP posts:
Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:40

FrownedUpon · 19/12/2023 18:15

We do children no favours by removing all stressful or triggering situations for them. It means they never learn to cope and see that they can manage anxiety and feeling upset. In my school, we’ve been advised to stop allowing SEN pupils to avoid assemblies etc, but to support them in coping and it’s incredible how their confidence and ability to manage anxious situations has increased.

The teacher hardly "supported her in coping" by being unfriendly and snappy to her then making an anxious child who needs reassurance and certainty stand at the front while everybody stared at her rather than having prepared properly, showing her the seat allocated for her and making her feel welcome. How was what the teacher did "supporting" her?

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:43

Kangaboo · 19/12/2023 21:05

I am glad I am not a teacher!

Surely the learning support team should have woken up your DD if she slept all morning and through lunch?

I know you are going to think this sounds crass and exclusionary @UndertheCedartree but as a parent of secondary school aged children it's dog eat dog in mainstream & if you think the teacher spoke sharply it's going to be far worse what comes from the children. You may not have alternatives to a mainstream place, but it sounds like secondary is going to be a very tough journey for your DD and you.

As they were accommodating more than one year group for lunch they started with Y7 at 11.30.

In all honesty, her school is lovely. The pupils are really polite, helpful and kind. She's had an older girl be a bit rude to her, but apart from that no rudeness atall. Of course there will be times, but I picked this school because of it's ethos. The head leads by example and it really works.

OP posts:
Nepmarthiturn · 20/12/2023 10:45

Chipsahoyagain · 20/12/2023 10:37

I like the way the answer to a teacher being rude to a SEN DC is that the DC must be moved out of mainstream education rather than teachers always being polite!

But teachers signed up to teach. Not to manage all these additional scenarios that they now have to do. It's not fair on anyone - the child or the teacher. Can you imagine having 29 kids in your care, having to provide them an education, then remember and manage each and every detail of these kids on top, and be cheery and bright through all of it. They are human and sometimes will make a mistake. You say it's the first time this has happened so the school can't be all that bad.

Teaching involves teaching other humans. These humans will not be robots and will need to be taught in a variety of ways to teach them successfully. So yes, it absolutely is the teacher's job to provide a suitable learning environment that takes into account that actual people they are teaching otherwise those people will not be able to learn and therefore the teacher is failing to do their job.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:45

Thegoodbadandugly · 19/12/2023 21:06

So Christmas dinner day is quieter than normal? Well that would be an absolute first, you also have to consider that the child was not only in a new environment she also had the change with the PJ's as well as change of routine for lunch anyway so she would have been overwhelmed.

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If usually the whole school is having lunch at the same time but for Christmas dinner they don't then of course it will be quieter. And it's not a first, they've always done it that way!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:51

Happiestathome · 19/12/2023 21:09

Both my children are ND and I also work in a school. YANBU to feel disappointed your daughter missed the dinner, I would be for my children too. I’m also fiercely protective of them so I would also raise it to find out what happened as you have done. From the other side, please try to forgive the error. That teacher is seeing approx 150 kids a day if there are 5 lessons a day. As another poster explained, so much goes on at the start of a class, it can be extremely stressful. Hopefully this is a one off and they are actually a lovely teacher who had one bad moment. I’m sure they regret the impact on your daughter. They will also be spoken to by the headteacher and will no doubt be much more mindful in future. I hope your daughter is able to enjoy the remainder of the Christmas period

They have 3 lessons a day. I've already forgiven the teacher although I don't really think they need my forgiveness but I don't hold anything against them. Hopefully they are a lovely teacher. And thank you for your well wishes.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:52

Hercisback · 19/12/2023 21:09

OP you're being completely ignorant to the realities of teaching. Perhaps time for you to have some understanding.

I've been a teacher so I'm not ignorant to the realities.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:53

Twixandtinsel · 19/12/2023 21:13

It's not realistic for teachers to behave like a robot every day and meet every single need. It's just not, and whilst not ideal for sure, you have reacted disproportionately.

My DD struggles with the same type of things...yes there is a plan to minimise the upset to her but it's absolutely not realistic to make school an environment where nothing upsets her. You've already said you're generally happy with the school. Shit happens unfortunately, yes, focus on coaching your daughter through it rather than blaming a knackered teacher. She's going to have a hell of a shock after school if you have an expectation that nothing is ever going to happen in school that might throw her out.

How have I acted disproportionately.

And I don't have those expectations.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:56

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 19/12/2023 21:18

I've not been disappointed with the school atall as they dealt with this so robustly. It wasn't something I would have mentioned as not knowing the teacher I gave them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps there is a reason the headteacher didn't.
Excellent! She's been dealt with 'robustly' so hopefully she'll now get the hell out of teaching knowing how little she is valued or any understanding given to everything else she has to deal with. Get the pitchforks and bonfire ready!

Who's got pitchforks and bonfires?

This head is really well liked by the staff who are treated well by her.

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Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:57

AngelsandAliens · 19/12/2023 21:29

Wow the replies on this thread are shocking, just unsympathetic and harsh , clearly the people commenting know absolutely nothing about autistic children irrelevant of what age they are, . OP I hope your daughter is doing ok now.

Thank you, she's having a much better day.

OP posts: