Page 17 | To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

UndertheCedartree · 2023-12-19T17:25:25+00:00

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her. Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her. Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 09:09

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:07

Well according to many on here if she is ND shouldn't she have built more resilience?

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According to many on here that shouldn't be expected

tomatoontoast · 20/12/2023 09:09

YANBU to be sad your daughter missed the Christmas dinner.

YABU to put all the blame on the teacher. You were there in the morning when she was having a meltdown and you brought her to school when she was getting distressed. More time should have been spent trying to calm the meltdown.

It might have been better to bring her home instead of her having falling asleep at the school. It's a bit shit to have just left her there.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:11

waterdusky · 19/12/2023 20:17

How do you know the teacher is NT? Teaching, because of the rigid routines and pre-determined core routines, actually attracts a higher number of ND people than you'd realise. The vast majority of our maths, IT and science teachers at our school have autism.

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But according to posters on here if she is autistic she should have built more resilience to cope with tricky situations. The point the poster was making was it goes both ways.

And I'm pretty fed up with posters saying it's ok for teachers to be rude because they're tired, have a busy job etc. I'm fully aware of that but lots of us are tired and have busy jobs and that behaviour would not be allowed in our jobs. Why is it different for teachers?

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WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 09:14

Good point Devonshire gal.

I think it’s right that these things are disappointing…..but to expect that they will never happen is simply unrealistic. There will be more of this stuff to come. Knowing and expecting it isn’t to justify it, but to prepare both DD and also OP for the fact it will and strategies to manage it.

As a parent, OP needs to learn how to deal with and respond to and manage how she feels when these things happen. Her reaction can lead to her being devastated by events such as those yesterday, or something quite different.

Given she’s had life with a ND child for over a decade now, I guess this roller coaster of emotions and dealing with other people who dont always understand, isn’t new?? Adjusting and learning to manage your own feelings about it is a process and I’d have thought that was underway already for a number of years.

OP, I hope I can ask this without you being offended…..are you ND yourself? Navigating the world of education with a ND child is really difficult for anyone, but for a parent who is also ND even more tricky. I can see how difficult that might be.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:15

Pieceofpurplesky · 19/12/2023 20:18

An autistic child can be triggered by anything and it can manifest in many ways at any time. An incident one day can easily lead to a meltdown the next. I see this day in day out at school (specialist).

I left mainstream as children like the OP's DD were being let down. The OP says that all teachers are aware of her daughter and her needs but I disagree unless it's a tiny school. Many teachers do not have the time to read a full EHCP and its recommendations because they are being battered by SLT about results, communication is shit and trying to manage increasingly challenging behaviour (even in a girls' school with good behaviour).

The teacher may have snapped, she probably feels terrible - but she did need to keep your daughter to one side to see where the seat was - she probably hadn't had time to see what the seating plan said.

OP please blame the system that lets kids and teachers down!

It is a small school but I take your point.

And it's not the keeping her to one side that I have the issue with, it's her bad manners and not just communicating with DD nicely 'I'm not sure where you can sit, just stay with me a moment and we'll see where a spare seat is'.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:19

Keepingthingsinteresting · 19/12/2023 20:20

Ok. @UndertheCedartree this is where you lost me. The teacher is not an air hostess, the welcome may not have been perfect, but it clearly wasn’t intentional and it’s been made very clear by lots of posters the pressure and lack of support teachers are under.
It was a less than ideal situation, it’s a shame for your daughter, but this will sadly not be the last time, and honest if you alienating teachers you are in for a long rough riddle, you catch more flies with honey that vinegar.

Hope your DD is starting to feel better.

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Thank you, she is starting to feel better. Hopefully she will have many good experiences with the teacher next term which will help her get over this.

How am I alienating the teacher? It's not like I complained or anything. I've just had a vent on MN.

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Kangaboo · 20/12/2023 09:20

@UndertheCedartree so you’ve been asked a few times but haven’t answered, what are your thoughts on the learning support staff letting your daughter sleep all morning/through lunch? Have you spoken to them about what will happen if a similar scenario/meltdown occurs?

I remember being surprised at how my children were spoken to by secondary staff, it’s a big step up from the nurturing primary school environment for everyone. It’s also a step towards adulthood and I appreciate some people find that transition harder than others but it is the path your dad is now on.

Am surprised at pyjamas at secondary most boys I know would not entertain that! Or for some even have pyjamas!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:21

Witchdr92456 · 19/12/2023 20:21

Is your dd in secondary school? Has she got a echp? unfortunately when they leave primary they aren’t cared and nurtured anymore. They are basically just a number and if it’s a large school they are forgotten about because of the numbers in the year groups. I would be looking to change to a more specialist provision as they will keep happening

Yes, secondary. I have to say she has been cared about and nurtured at this school. It is only small. There is no availability of specialist provision.

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WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 09:22

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:11

But according to posters on here if she is autistic she should have built more resilience to cope with tricky situations. The point the poster was making was it goes both ways.

And I'm pretty fed up with posters saying it's ok for teachers to be rude because they're tired, have a busy job etc. I'm fully aware of that but lots of us are tired and have busy jobs and that behaviour would not be allowed in our jobs. Why is it different for teachers?

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OP, people aren’t saying it is OK to be rude, or for teachers to be rude. But they are explaining pressures which might explain why these things happen.

When you say this behaviour wouldn’t be allowed in other jobs, well it’s just not a simple as that is it? In most jobs, at points people experience someone who speaks in a tone which isn’t the most positive or who uses an expression of exasperation. These aren’t good things, but they happen and some of it is about human interaction and unless we become robots, such things will never be fully eradicated.

It’s very black and white to see every response or expression or tone as ‘correct’ or ‘wrong’ and not to be able to see that a broader and bigger context influences these things. Of course we need to try to minimise these influences which can lead to any of us being snappy or having an expression someone might not like, or body language which might feel unwelcoming, or any other myriad of behaviours, but they won’t be fully eradicated. Most people know that.

Kangaboo · 20/12/2023 09:23

So the teacher may have been the catalyst but the cause of her missing the lunch was the learning support team not waking her? But you are directing your anger / upset solely at the teacher.

JVC24601 · 20/12/2023 09:25

What you probably don’t realise is that seating plans aren’t in teachers’ heads- schools use online systems now to save and edit seating plans. She won’t have memorised the future seat of a new student she hasn’t met yet- she has probably 300 other pupils, and from my experience I can almost guarantee she didn’t know your daughter was turning up that lesson.

So she will have been logging in, signing in to ClassCharts or whatever system they use, finding the class, and then be able to tell your daughter where she is in the plan.

Teachers don’t expect parents to know all the ins and outs of what is involved every lesson, but we do expect parents to have a little faith in us doing our best.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:26

thefallen · 19/12/2023 20:23

People are doing those with SEN a massive disservice if they are assumed not to be able to develop resilience.

OP - things happen. Your daughter's teacher will have been dealing with 29 other children at the same time. He or she is probably exhausted. Your daughter can be helped to understand that sometimes people make mistakes.

I think you've missed the point. SEN DC show massive resilience every day just by going to school.

I do understand but as a nurse I can't go around being rude to people just because I have 30 patients to look after.

But yes, I've explained it to my DD.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:27

StupidStunts · 19/12/2023 20:23

So - assuming the teacher is nd, the nd teacher gets a pass because she is human, but the nd 11yo doesn't and should develop 'resilience'?

I am autistic with autistic dc. I expect more from myself than I do from them, because I have been alive longer and had more chance to develop coping mechanisms.

Not giving special treatment, expecting resilience and masking, damaged me as a teen. This thread is so full of ablist crap

I agree.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:37

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 20:23

I still don't know what you want from this thread.

The Headteacher has investigated. The teacher has admitted she didn't handle the situation well. She can't change it now.

You need to move past it. Teachers do sometimes snap. Teachers do sometimes get flustered and overwhelmed. You weren't there either. You don't know what happened from the teacher's perspective. If I've got a class of 30 kids coming into my classroom, I might just have got there myself, and I'm trying to get them settled and sat down, I'm trying to get logged into the computer, I'm trying to get books handed out, and then I've got kids queuing up to tell me that they need the toilet, can they go to their locker, they forgot their homework, and then if someone then said to me, oh I don't know where to sit, where should I sit, I might turn and say - slightly snappily - can you just wait a minute?

Can you REALLY not see from the teacher's perspective how this might have happened?

You seem absolutely determined to believe that this teacher is a malicious, unprofessional nasty cow who deliberately targeted your autistic daughter. Maybe she did. Maybe she hates autistic kids. Maybe she doesn't want your daughter in her class. Maybe she's an evil crone who shouldn't be anywhere near kids.

Or maybe - just maybe - she's a knackered, overworked woman who in a moment of feeling overwhelmed and underprepared made an error of judgement. She has admitted it. I'm sure she feels terrible. I would in her shoes.

Rather than continuing to demonise her, how about giving the teacher a chance to make amends and to build a positive relationship with your daughter, rather than holding onto a grudge and encouraging your daughter to do the same?

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I'm afraid you're reading this completely wrong. No where have I said I think the teacher was malicious or nasty or a cow. And honestly all the other things you said are ridiculous! All I've said is it was unprofessional to snap at my DD and that the incident was unprofessional.

I get she's probably knackered, I get it was a mistake. Fwiw, I forgive her! I've not demonised her atall! As a teacher is it really so hard to be told it is unprofessional to snap at DC? Does that really make you feel demonised, like people think you are malicious and evil?? If so, I'd perhaps try and work on that because some people will say much worse!

The teacher will have a chance to make amends at the next class it's not something I have to give her a chance to do. I've never had a grudge against this teacher so nothing to hold onto. And how is telling my DD the teacher was probably having a bad day encouraging her to hold onto a grudge?!

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User2346 · 20/12/2023 09:38

@Witchdr92456 there is an appalling shortage of Specialist schools and more often than not it can take years to get a place often needing an tribunal to gain a place as most LA’s adopt a kick the can down the road approach. My nearest is 90 minutes away, has an up to 2 year waiting list for assessment, tribunal courts have a waiting list of over a hear and are frequently adjourned. To top it all the expert reports and legal fees run into tens of thousands of pounds which are often needed as LA reports if you can get them are of appalling quality.

All of the comments on here saying just pop into Specialist need a dose of reality of how hard it is. In my ds school which is amazing they have a huge proportion of children who need specialist, their parents know it and want it l have tried but they can’t get it. I am completely in awe of the teachers and the shit they have to put up with from frequently violent and disruptive pupils who need specialist. I am also in awe of the parents who are up against a failed system knowing that they are sending their dc into a school placement that is set up to fail.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:39

EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 20:27

This post really addresses how hard it is for teachers.

I'm very sorry for OP's DD, but even if the teacher spoke out of turn, it's so unfair to hold her responsible for DD's emotional disregulation. I can absolutely see the Head & teacher apologising, and it's correct in part that they do, but I can also see how hard it must be for the teacher, doing their best and then being given grief for a brief misstep.

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The head is very good with staff so I'm sure her interaction with the teacher was supportive.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:42

momonpurpose · 19/12/2023 20:27

How is your daughter now? I hope she isn't too disappointed and maybe you can have a little special day together. It's so hard being a mom and seeing our kids disappointed

She was feeling better today, but had quite a few tears before school. Learning support came to pick her up from reception and she did say she didn't want to leave me but then went in. Hopefully she'll have a good day. Thank you for asking.

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EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 09:43

@UndertheCedartree

You seem focused on the concept that the teacher was rude and you can’t seem to appreciate any nuance around why she might have spoken to your daughter in the way she did. You keep saying there is no excuse for being rude even though numerous people have explained how it is unreasonable to expect your daughter to always be spoken to politely by staff at school because those staff are human.

You say you are a nurse and are not ‘allowed’ to be rude at work. Well, I’m sure all of us who have had the misfortune to be in hospital have an anecdote of a rude or uncaring nurse we’ve encountered. I certainly have! So you have got a rather unrealistic view of the behaviours displayed by members not only of the teaching profession, but also of your own. Both are stressful and emotional jobs that sometimes push those doing them into situations where they lose their cool. That is the reality. I think we can all forgive the occasional lapse of professionalism under pressure.

It’s still unclear what you want or expect going forward. You have mentioned wanting an apology. So why not arrange to meet with this teacher so you can get one? This teacher will be with your daughter all year, so resolving this situation and moving forward positively is in everyone’s best interests. Rather than discussing the teacher with other staff at the school and with strangers on the internet, have a conversation with her directly and give her the opportunity to set things to rights. You have made a lot of assumptions about her and I don’t think that’s particularly kind or fair. Respect goes both ways.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:45

EarringsandLipstick · 19/12/2023 20:28

Poor teacher probably feels awful, will have had an awkward conversation with the head and now be questioning their career.

Yes, sadly. I can imagine this. I'm not a teacher but have been in somewhat similar situations in a university setting. It can be really demoralising & upsetting for otherwise committed teaching staff to be characterised in this way.

I'm not sure how this teacher has been characterised. It seemed perhaps she has a bit of a reputation for being rude. And that's really not tolerated at that school. But hopefully the head teacher was supportive.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:47

JVC24601 · 19/12/2023 20:29

I can promise you the “looks” will have been “dear god how do we placate this parent”.

I am so sympathetic to your daughter having to start a brand new lesson with a new class and a new teacher and then have a completely disrupted day out of uniform with no normal routine.

I am also sympathetic to the teacher in an impossible situation.

I am not sympathetic to throwing blame where it really doesn’t need to be thrown.

Why did they need to placate me? I hadn't done anything!!

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MichelleScarn · 20/12/2023 09:50

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:39

The head is very good with staff so I'm sure her interaction with the teacher was supportive.

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All other members of staff were briefed. The headteacher told me this teacher has also been briefed. I get the impression she has a reputation for being difficult maybe? Of course they were too professional to tell me anything like that it was just the looks they gave each other. This doesn't sound like a headteacher who is supportive of all staff? Who was all 'looking at each other'?
What was actually said in the 'snapping' and has the teacher been given the opportunity to defend herself with union representatives of course rather than just the head and lsa telling you how awful and unprofessional she is, and discussing this with other staff?

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:51

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 19/12/2023 20:29

Sounds like quite an unprofessional school with all the other teachers getting involved The headteacher told me this teacher has also been briefed. I get the impression she has a reputation for being difficult maybe? Of course they were too professional to tell me anything like that it was just the looks they gave each other and the LSA not stepping in to support your daughter in the science class , would they not have access to seating plan if they were there to support your DD?

All the other teachers? Meaning the headteacher responding to my DD? And the LSA when asked? How is that unprofessional? You make it sound like half the staff were falling over themselves to get involved!

I have explained the LSA did step in. I'm not sure if she had access to the seating plan.

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EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 09:56

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:37

I'm afraid you're reading this completely wrong. No where have I said I think the teacher was malicious or nasty or a cow. And honestly all the other things you said are ridiculous! All I've said is it was unprofessional to snap at my DD and that the incident was unprofessional.

I get she's probably knackered, I get it was a mistake. Fwiw, I forgive her! I've not demonised her atall! As a teacher is it really so hard to be told it is unprofessional to snap at DC? Does that really make you feel demonised, like people think you are malicious and evil?? If so, I'd perhaps try and work on that because some people will say much worse!

The teacher will have a chance to make amends at the next class it's not something I have to give her a chance to do. I've never had a grudge against this teacher so nothing to hold onto. And how is telling my DD the teacher was probably having a bad day encouraging her to hold onto a grudge?!

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Your posts are increasingly contradictory and confusing.

If you ‘forgive’ the teacher and know she will make amends next lesson, then why make such a big deal out of it? Why keep insisting that she was rude and unprofessional if you claim to appreciate that she was probably knackered and under pressure?

The way you keep referring back to posts from the thread at random is also very confusing. It doesn’t help the conversation when you keep jumping back to posts out of the order and context in which they were written.

DiaryOfaTTCer · 20/12/2023 10:00

How do you know that the teacher 'has a reputation for being rude'? You've mentioned that a few times.

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UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 10:03

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 20:36

Ah, I see. That makes more sense re: starting the class so late.

And you know what I mean by choose. If you choose a mainstream school for your child who has SEN, you have to go in knowing there is not going to be the same provision as in a specialist school. Expecting every teacher to be trained in how to deal with your daughter's autism is unrealistic. This training doesn't happen and mainstream teachers do their best based on their experience and instinct, but that's all. There is no money or time for training. So you have to be prepared for that.

Look, I don't know the school, I don't know the teacher, I don't know the exact circumstances. I'm just giving you a teacher's perspective of how things are on the ground.

And yes, actually, I have snapped at colleagues and at my Headteacher, several times. We all have. Teaching is really stressful and sometimes really upsetting, and sometimes you do lose your cool because you're human. Honestly, please, do it for a day before trying to judge and blame. I remember vividly one day when a lovely child in my form came to me in the break between lessons to tell me she'd been raped at the weekend by a family member. I had to hold it together while she made this disclosure to me, take her over to the pastoral support building and hold her hand while she told the DSL what had happened, then run back over and teach my next class, all while holding back tears and having to act as if everything was perfectly normal. It was exhausting and I was a crying wreck at the end of it. I cried alone in my classroom, then had to go and splash water on my face to then come back and teach the next class. In many schools, that is the day-to-day reality for teachers. When your child comes home and says 'Mrs X was mean to me today' and you go in all guns blazing, you genuinely have no idea what that teacher will have been dealing with mentally while trying to teach your child.

I do my best to always be polite, kind, loving and caring to my students. But sometimes they really, really, really test my patience, and sometimes I do snap. Especially when I'm tired, or ill, or I've got shit going on in my own life. I'm not perfect. I do my best, but sometimes I let myself and the kids down. I always apologise when I do, but I know that sometimes that won't be enough for a child who's been hurt by what I've thoughtlessly said in a moment of stress. And it's not easy to live with that. I've cried many times after a long day at work, beating myself up for all the things I could and should have done differently. It's not an easy gig.

It really, really bothers me that so many people who have no idea what it's like, seem to expect teachers to be superhuman. It all adds to the pressure we're already under, and it's crippling. It really is.

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I don't expect huge amounts of training, but yes, training does happen on INSET days. Funnily enough, the last one was on autism. But I take your point the training will be limited. And yes, I get that. I don't know the teacher either which was why I gave her the benefit of the doubt.

I'm surprised at you snapping at colleagues. I can honestly say I would not ever do it. I didn't as a teacher and don't as a nurse. But I'll take that on board. I have done it for more than a day. I also nurse now which I'm sure you can understand is very stressful and upsetting too. I'm not rude to my colleagues or patients. I just don't think it's acceptable. I'm sorry to hear of the difficult situations you've been in.

I did not go in all guns blazing! I made no complaint about the teacher. I simply took my DC into school. I feel you are projecting about your own experiences. I don't expect teachers to be superhuman. I know the job is tough.

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