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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

811 replies

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 17:25

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

OP posts:
MistletoeandJd · 20/12/2023 08:29

PatienceOfEngels · 20/12/2023 07:03

I'm a secondary school teacher (and parent of a child with ASD).

If I had a student with ASD attending my class for the first time I would have been informed. I would have read the student's IEP.

Any new student attending a class for at the first time would have a buddy student to help them.

If I have assigned seats/seating plan then I would know which seats are free and therefore where to place them, I wouldn't have to wait for all the students to sit down.

The two incidents (science and meltdown) are not necessarily directly related as I think many of my ASD students would be unsettled simply by the pyjama day and/or the Christmas dinner, but it would not have helped in the big picture.

It's always a really difficult time of year for students with additional needs. You know your daughter best OP and what she needs to be able to cope. There will always be things which you'd like her to be able to cope with/experience which she struggles with. It's one of the things I've had to come to terms with as a parent of a ND child.

In your shoes I would be letting her tutor know that this experience was difficult for her. As a teacher I'd also want to know if a student had been affected like this so I could adjust my approach.

We need more of you !!

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:30

mfbx5sf3 · 19/12/2023 19:58

Why have you bothered posting in AIBU? Everyone someone tries to explain the teachers point of view you are instantly stomping your foot all “No they are wrong/ my poor child”. Find another source for your self validation

Because my AIBU wasn't about the rights and wrongs of the teacher. And I'll get my self validation where I like, thanks.

OP posts:
MistletoeandJd · 20/12/2023 08:32

Many of our kids SHOULDN'T be in mainstream, they also shouldn't be in full on sen schools catering to very complex needs. The middle ground being SEMH are all packed to capacity. We need more

imnotthatkindofmum · 20/12/2023 08:34

Good grief. A new student asking where to sit? Why is everyone defending the teacher, how rude and uncaring! All they needed was to speak kindly, it's not hard!

I'm a teacher btw. Secondary. So no coming at me about teachers stress etc.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:35

BlueMongoose · 19/12/2023 19:59

You need to bear in mind if your child has difficulties that teachers are not always informed by the school about kids' problems, plans or not. You say all the teachers know. How are you so sure of that?

And you also need to bear in mind that teachers are human, too.

I used to be one, though I taught 16+ . The way things are now, I wouldn't consider the job in a school no matter what you paid me. You're expected to be a teacher and get good academic results, which is a tough job in itself and to my mind should be all a teacher should do- plus spend most of your time outside school doing paperwork even in holiday time, be a police officer, a social worker, a psychologist, a counsellor, (all of which should be qualified specialists, not teachers), a leader in out of school activities for no extra pay, take all the crap parents throw at you when an idle kid or just one that is a good kid but not good at the subject isn't achieving, bring their kids up properly to tell the truth, socialise, and behave decently when parents often can't be bothered to, put up with actual violence from kids and parents, and cope with 30 at a time when most parents, with far more sanctions available, can often not cope with just one. And you must, according to modern ideas, never once speak unkindly to any of them. Sod that for a lark. There aren't enough saints with boundless energy and totally unassailable good physical and mental health to go round to staff schools with people who can do all that.

Of course it's reasonable to try to help kids who are struggling, and many teachers are positively heroic in doing so however knackered they are, but this needs to come with a warning- if accommodating kids problems goes too far, it prepares kids very badly for the world outside, and the world of work.

I'm basing it on what the headteacher told me. But maybe she was mistaken about this individual teacher, but seemed like she'd looked into it.

I've taught myself so do understand. I just think there's no excuse for bad manners. I'm a nurse now so know all about being knackered, but I remain polite.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:37

Macaroni46 · 19/12/2023 19:59

@UndertheCedartree

Prinnny
Hardly the teachers fault, YABU to put your child’s meltdown onto them.

Even though the meltdown was because of the unprofessional behaviour of the teacher?

But how do you it's because of the teacher? The seating plan incident happened the day before. The day of the meltdown involved wearing pjs and a Christmas dinner, both situations which would increase anxiety in any child.

Because I know my DC (i.e wearing pyjamas was no issue) and because she told us what caused the meltdown. It's really quite straightforward.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:39

BlueMongoose · 19/12/2023 20:02

Wait- the LSA 'backed it up'? Was this person present? If not, they don't know what happened any better than you do. If they were, WTF were they doing?

Show quote history

Yes, they were present, dealing with another child I expect. They then stepped in and got DD seated when it appeared the teacher was struggling.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:43

BewaretheIckabog · 19/12/2023 20:03

Putting an autistic 11 year old in to a new school 3 weeks before Christmas seems a really bad decision.

Obviously do not know whether this was OP’s choice or not.

There’s so much going on, all young kids get giddy towards the end of term especially at Christmas. Routines change, there are additional events and the child will not have built up friendships.

These factors are likely to have more impact on the child than one teacher’s words.

It’s ok to be sad your daughter missed the lunch but pinning the blame on one teacher is ridiculous.

Yes, it wasn't my choice. It has all been routine until yesterday and DD was coping really well. You are significantly underestimating the effect a teacher's words can have on a DC. I wish teachers would realise this.

OP posts:
Chickenfeed67 · 20/12/2023 08:44

This really sounds like the LSA should have been more active - if they were present and doing their job, they should have introduced your daughter to the teacher, not left her to speak to the teacher herself. You presume the LSA was dealing with another child? But you don’t know that.

NotSayingImBatman · 20/12/2023 08:44

I’m sorry your poor DD had to go through that. You’ll get very little sympathy on MN, there’s a lot of anti SEN sentiment here, usually hidden under a thin veneer of support for teachers, but there’s some wonderful Facebook groups out there where you’ll get a lot of support. I’m autistic myself and I would’ve simply expired on the spot if a teacher had a) snapped at me and b) left me standing like a lemon in front of the whole class!

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:45

Twixandtinsel · 19/12/2023 20:06

And the teacher is not unprofessional. She is HUMAN.

Yes, humans can be unprofessional. We're all human but doesn't mean we have to act unprofessionally.

OP posts:
ItAintGonnaGoDownEasyIfItAintCheezy · 20/12/2023 08:45

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 21:17

Well, I'll trust the head teacher to know best about that. And I think my daughter and I know better what caused her meltdown than you.

Show quote history

Maybe if you know best and expect a one-to-one level of service and attention, you should home school.

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 08:45

OP, I can see that you’ve worked through the comments in the thread and replied to them all. There are 4 pages of your replies.

You say you were disappointed and that you didn’t make a complaint or want action taken against the teacher, but was on here to vent. It’s now another day.

My question is, do you feel that you’ve vented now? Are you ready to move on from this…..or not? Are you wanting to cling into this and say the same thing over and over I r espouse to different comments from people on the thread? We can see that you think the school generally has been doing a good job. We can see that you think this teacher was unprofessional and unacceptable in the way they spoke to your DD.

I would say that in workplaces and in schools, things happen all the time that do t quite fit with an agreed plan, or involve someone using a tone or facial expression or whatever, that isn’t helpful, especially for those with additional needs. I think we can all agree those happen and it would be better if they didn’t and schools and other places should always strive to improve. And at the same time, we also have to accept these things happen and that when teachers have 300 students a week, all kinds of stresses we do t know about and who knows what had happened just before the lessons, whilst not justifiable, what happened, as a one-off and occasional thing isn’t actually surprising at all.

It’s not justifiable, but if this is really the only difficulty in terms of implementation of your DDs plan in 3 weeks of being there, that’s pretty amazing. I’m not saying that you should welcome these things (the talk of developing resilience isn’t helpful) or say they are good, but acknowledging that sometimes people won’t fully implement the plan, or other events happening around them with 30 other students might mean things go awry, is quite simply a necessity and recognition that whilst your DD has a plan in place and very particular needs, in the crazy environment if the school where there could be multiple complex needs in any class and demands which cannot all be met all the time, things fall through the cracks. And actually, the wrong tone, or a manner which isn’t helpful is one of those things that can happen.

Are you letting go and moving on? Yesterday was a disappointment and today is a new day. Are you recognising that your DD joined the school at a busy and difficult time of year and if she’s had almost 3 weeks of lots of successes, it’s a win and yesterday a small set-back? Are you also writing and posting about the small wins along the way?

I just ask these things, not to challenge what you said about what happened yesterday, not to justify the way the teacher spoke to your DD, or to say you were unreasonable to feel disappointed that your DD wasn’t able to enjoy the day, but in thinking about the way you feel about this event, and the way you see it in relation to the bigger picture.

You say you played it down to your DD. That’s really good to help her move on from it. But what about you….4 pages of pretty identical replies on. You seem to feel you have to justify yourself again and again. Is it keeping your upset alive and ongoing? Is it fuelling it? Do you want to fuel it or move on? Maybe another section if MN with parents in similar situations would be useful and also looking at what is the best and most healthy response to an event like this, both of the day and moving forward.

And I say these things with kindly intention and just to help you think not just about what happened yesterday, but your own response to it.

Hope your DD has a good day today and that the festivities over the cim8ng week are fun for her and the risks of being overwhelmed, which are many at this time of year don’t become too much.

MrsSkylerWhite · 20/12/2023 08:47

Nothingbuttheglory · Yesterday 17:42
**
@Covidiokilledtheradiostar Can I ask what you think the teacher should have done differently”

Not snapped at a new child, SEN or otherwise. Obviously.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:50

NorthernGirlie · 19/12/2023 20:07

My Wednesday morning class has 29 students.
4 have autism (1 of whom is non verbal)
1 is partially sighted so I need to remember to enlarge his work and pick it up from my desk after morning registration
1 has severe seizures
1 has a parent on end of life care and needs keeping an eye on
1 has ODD
1 is on the verge of exclusion for behaviour
1 is non binary so I need to remember that
1 us struggling with endo but is shy about asking to nip to the loo so I like to keep an eye on her for signs of pain and nudge her to nip out

Countless have other struggles, especially at this time of year.

I try - I really, really do but sometimes I can't remember what everyone needs all the time. That's just 1 class.

I love my job - the students are a blast and keep me on my toes. There are a couple I'd move in to my house and give them the care they don't get elsewhere if I could...

I'd be gutted if I upset a child and I'd apologise to them (not to their parent, or the head) because i genuinely want all of the children in all of my classes to be comfortable. I do fuck up sometimes though!

I get it. All I'm asking for is not to be rude. All the other stuff can be worked on/will develop in time. I hope the teacher apologises to her.

OP posts:
VanityDiesHard · 20/12/2023 08:51

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 08:45

OP, I can see that you’ve worked through the comments in the thread and replied to them all. There are 4 pages of your replies.

You say you were disappointed and that you didn’t make a complaint or want action taken against the teacher, but was on here to vent. It’s now another day.

My question is, do you feel that you’ve vented now? Are you ready to move on from this…..or not? Are you wanting to cling into this and say the same thing over and over I r espouse to different comments from people on the thread? We can see that you think the school generally has been doing a good job. We can see that you think this teacher was unprofessional and unacceptable in the way they spoke to your DD.

I would say that in workplaces and in schools, things happen all the time that do t quite fit with an agreed plan, or involve someone using a tone or facial expression or whatever, that isn’t helpful, especially for those with additional needs. I think we can all agree those happen and it would be better if they didn’t and schools and other places should always strive to improve. And at the same time, we also have to accept these things happen and that when teachers have 300 students a week, all kinds of stresses we do t know about and who knows what had happened just before the lessons, whilst not justifiable, what happened, as a one-off and occasional thing isn’t actually surprising at all.

It’s not justifiable, but if this is really the only difficulty in terms of implementation of your DDs plan in 3 weeks of being there, that’s pretty amazing. I’m not saying that you should welcome these things (the talk of developing resilience isn’t helpful) or say they are good, but acknowledging that sometimes people won’t fully implement the plan, or other events happening around them with 30 other students might mean things go awry, is quite simply a necessity and recognition that whilst your DD has a plan in place and very particular needs, in the crazy environment if the school where there could be multiple complex needs in any class and demands which cannot all be met all the time, things fall through the cracks. And actually, the wrong tone, or a manner which isn’t helpful is one of those things that can happen.

Are you letting go and moving on? Yesterday was a disappointment and today is a new day. Are you recognising that your DD joined the school at a busy and difficult time of year and if she’s had almost 3 weeks of lots of successes, it’s a win and yesterday a small set-back? Are you also writing and posting about the small wins along the way?

I just ask these things, not to challenge what you said about what happened yesterday, not to justify the way the teacher spoke to your DD, or to say you were unreasonable to feel disappointed that your DD wasn’t able to enjoy the day, but in thinking about the way you feel about this event, and the way you see it in relation to the bigger picture.

You say you played it down to your DD. That’s really good to help her move on from it. But what about you….4 pages of pretty identical replies on. You seem to feel you have to justify yourself again and again. Is it keeping your upset alive and ongoing? Is it fuelling it? Do you want to fuel it or move on? Maybe another section if MN with parents in similar situations would be useful and also looking at what is the best and most healthy response to an event like this, both of the day and moving forward.

And I say these things with kindly intention and just to help you think not just about what happened yesterday, but your own response to it.

Hope your DD has a good day today and that the festivities over the cim8ng week are fun for her and the risks of being overwhelmed, which are many at this time of year don’t become too much.

To be fair, the OP has been responding to posts which only see the teacher's point of view and are telling her that her daughter needs to toughen up. I'm not surprised that she isn't backing down.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:52

BlueMongoose · 19/12/2023 20:08

I don't think the teacher was being 'unprofessional'.
That word is a very serious one, and should be reserved for behaviour well outside what's acceptable of a professional teacher, like hitting or swearing at a pupil, or having pupils cheat in exams. And frankly, this is nothing of the sort, nor anything remotely like it. It's not a word to bandy round for this sort of incident. 'Unprofessional' means the sort of thing someone ought to be facing the possible sack for. You're getting this completely out of proportion- if you used that word for some other professionals in a similar context, they could sue you.

And blaming the teacher for what happened the day after.....
I am beginning to see a pattern here.

What job do you do?

Show quote history

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

My background is in education but I'm currently a nurse.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:55

Hercisback · 19/12/2023 20:08

This so could have been me as the teacher. Part through the day at a lesson transition and not being 100% sure of where the gaps were in my seating plan. Flustered I'd ask the child to wait to the side and possibly be attempting to deal with another incident in the meantime, and could sound like I snapped.

Poor teacher probably feels awful, will have had an awkward conversation with the head and now be questioning their career.

She wasn't asked to wait to the side and the teacher was rude.

I hope the conversation with the head wasn't awkward. She apparently is really good with staff. (My friend works there and another used to.)

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:58

waterdusky · 19/12/2023 20:09

I have a DD with autism. I am a teacher and currently have around 45 out of the 302 students I teach a week that have an autism diagnosis. Sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes I snap because I have ADHD and I get overwhelmed. I don't mean to, but I am human and make mistakes. The chronic underfunding of SEND and the governmental lack of engagement with advice has led to this level of responsibility being put on teachers to an unmanageable level. I cannot learn that many SEND profiles and in my 10 years of teaching across 3 schools, zero hours of training time has been put aside for autism. Any knowledge I have gained has come from trial and error and my own DD. Mistakes are going to continue to happen unless something drastically changes with the SEND provision in state schools. This teacher is human and made a mistake and doesn't mean they are a bad teacher, just that they are fallible. Nothing you will do can change what has happened. You are upset and looking to point the finger, I get that. But if she acknowledged that she snapped to your daughter, this means she's reflecting on her actions and learning from them, so I'd see how things go from here.

I agree with a lot of what you say. However, the school recently did training around autism which is great.

I know the teacher is human and I've not judged them a bad teacher based on this incident.

OP posts:
WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 08:58

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:35

I'm basing it on what the headteacher told me. But maybe she was mistaken about this individual teacher, but seemed like she'd looked into it.

I've taught myself so do understand. I just think there's no excuse for bad manners. I'm a nurse now so know all about being knackered, but I remain polite.

Show quote history

So it only 'seems' like it's been looked into? The LSA was actually helping another student so wasn't actually paying proper attention? Has the teacher actually confirmed what is being said about her? As a nurse I'm assuming you'll be happy with your professional registration being queried to the nmc without any actual discussion should a pt or their family or a colleague accuse you of something?

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:02

BarelyCoping123 · 19/12/2023 20:10

Bit odd to blame today's meltdown on yesterday's science teacher, OP, i cant see that theyre related.
Also i dont think the festive dinner would have been a good introduction to the canteen at all - this should be done on a different day, with staff, ideally before the full student population piles in.
Try not to get invested in specific events, like a festive dinner - youre setting yourself & DD up for constant disappointments. Just try to be flexible and resilient, and set an example for DD.

You may not be able to see that they are related, after all you don't know anything about my daughter. It doesn't change the fact that her meltdown was due to that incident.

And as I keep explaining it would not be the full population of the school piling in!! That's what happens on a normal day. It would have just been Y7 in there. Give Learning support some credit for knowing what goes on at their own school and what would be a good introduction to the canteen for her!

OP posts:
DiaryOfaTTCer · 20/12/2023 09:04

How do you know that the incident with the teacher is linked to the meltdown the following day, which resulted in her missing Christmas dinner?

Did your child say that was the reason? If so, why?

WombatChocolate · 20/12/2023 09:04

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:37

Because I know my DC (i.e wearing pyjamas was no issue) and because she told us what caused the meltdown. It's really quite straightforward.

Show quote history

‘…she told us what caused the meltdown. It’s really quite straightforward’

Quite possibly not. Again, not justifying the teacher, but pointing out that things are often not straightforward but complex. The perception of your DD of events and ability to know or understand all the other things happening in the room or what the teacher was dealing with before the lesson or during, is quite simply limited.

I think the HT who looked into this and is responding to this, will absolutely know how complex things are. They won’t be purely looking at ‘snapping’ as described by your DD and seeing the bigger picture of what had happened before the lesson for your DD and also all the other things the teacher was dealing with that day. They won’t be excusing and justifying what happened, and they will be looking t how things can be better in future, but they also won’t be hanging the teacher out to dry about this or dwelling on it in an excessive way. Every day in schools, incidents like this happen. Things don’t run perfectly or smoothly. Good schools listen and take on board and try to improve, but also have to remain realistic about the implications of stretched resources and the fact that the needs of thousands of students have to be met.

Of course, your DD is your concern and not the other thousands in the school. Of course your DDs plan and what’s happening to her day-to-day is your focus. And the school is focusing on it too….along with however many over plans they need to put in place, communicate and implement with the hundreds of staff involved. Things are complex. On a basic level, an individual incident might seem simple and straightforward and possibly on a micro level, it is, but it’s also part if something much bigger that’s going on and you can’t ignore or pretend the bigger stuff isn’t there. That’s where some kind of perspective is needed. Simply saying over and over again ‘speaking unprofessionally isn’t acceptable’ or ‘it shouldn’t happen’ doesn’t remove those bigger things or remove the pressures that people are under which result in them sometimes showing an exasperated expression, or using poorly-chosen words, or an unhelpful tone, or not quite having prepped for something in the best way. And I get that these things impact certain children much more and work must be done to improve them. It must. But at the same time, knowing that the pressures of teaching 300 children, not knowing what had just happened for that teacher in the previous lesson or earlier in the day or whatever maybe gives some context to the fact people don’t always do exactly what the best m ideal or most professional thing might be.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:05

Devonshiregal · 19/12/2023 20:15

mainly old school teachers tend to be unprofessional in my experience. Often. They snap. They put kids down. They still say sexist shit like “young ladies don’t behave that way.” They get pissed off when you don’t know something.

unfortunately that’s what you get in schools. I am NOT saying it’s ok. I find it hard to deal with and half the time want to drag my kid out of school and they go to a good one! (By nice I mean mainly nice teachers)

you cannot expect that this kind of thing won’t happen again and regularly. It will.

people are also dickheads in life so it really is a good thing to teach her some good responses and how to deal in situations she’s not comfortable.

I know it’s not easy so please don’t take that as me being flippant but you can’t control other people, you can only “control” your reaction. (Obviously being Nt this is not so easy but you know what I mean) So maybe some kind of ‘script’ she could go to when she feels shouted at?

I'm probably teaching you how to suck eggs (or whatever that phrase is) so sorry.

Show quote history

Thank you, that's good advice.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 09:07

doglover90 · 19/12/2023 20:16

@Nonplusultra how do you know the teacher is neurotypical?

Well according to many on here if she is ND shouldn't she have built more resilience?

OP posts: