Page 15 | To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

UndertheCedartree · 2023-12-19T17:25:25+00:00

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her. Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her. Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:18

FaiIureToLunch · 19/12/2023 19:34

My son is autistic and you are doing your daughter no favours at all by treating her like a victim. I’d be more bothered about her reaction than missing her dinner

I've not treated her like a victim. When she told me what happened, I told her the teacher was probably having a bad day and hopefully she'll be having a better one next time.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:21

DiddyHeck · 19/12/2023 19:34

It wasn't really though was it?

I mean no-one would be reasonable or unreasonable to feel sad at that. Why would you need to ask the opinions of strangers about a feeling?

Clearly you wanted to get the whole thing off your chest, which is fair enough but now you're sounding a bit disingenuous.

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It's just nice to get some solidarity around it and some perspective. Maybe feeling sad is too over the top, I don't know. But yes, you're right it was also to get it off my chest. I apologise for sounding disingenuous, not my intention atall.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:23

PaperDoIIs · 19/12/2023 19:37

YANBU . It's shit it happened. It's really shit that it will probably happen again.

I won't advise you how to deal with the school as you seem to be on it, you have your daughter's back and say the school staff in general seem supportive.

I would say, don't make this a big deal in front of your daughter (not implying you would,but just in case). It will just be an added layer of anxiety, that time when everything went wrong, she had a meltdown and missed on this big thing. Make it as little as possible, there will be other opportunities, and look at all these events in the new year she could try etc. Use it as a reassuring moment instead, not a lot happened despite the meltdown and everything going wrong. She was ok, she will be again. Everyone understood. Just work with her and preferably with extra support (if any available) to learn from these things , regulate herself as best as she can and try to muddle through. Because sadly, it will happen again and it's devastating for both of you.

Thank you, that's really good advice.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:26

Shepandawing · 19/12/2023 19:38

Did you hear the teacher "snap" at her?
Your daughter missed the lunch because of her own behaviour. I understand she has reasons for this behaviour but ultimately it came down to her own behaviour.

Luckily, she didn't snap at her so loudly, that people not even in the building, heard! 😂

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:34

Caththegreat · 19/12/2023 19:40

She might be knackered and though your child is autistic teacher had had enough

That's fine, but no excuse to snap. Lots of us get tired in our jobs but don't take it out on others.

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FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 07:35

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 17:55

This is nothing to do with the teacher.

If it's the end of December and your daughter is going into the Science lesson for the first time, that's a very unusual situation. It sounds like the teacher may not have been given any warning or much warning that they were getting a new student, and clearly didn't have time to allocate her a seat in advance, so asked her to wait to see where a spare space would be free before allocating her somewhere to sit. You have no idea that she 'snapped'. That's your daughter's perception but may not have been the reality.

If the school is this shit at giving teachers a heads up about new starters, I doubt this teacher was given any information about your daughter's autism, either.

I would speak to the SENCO and find out what's going on regarding internal comms. Why is your daughter only going to this Science class for the first time right at the end of term? Why had the teacher not been briefed? It's not the teacher's fault the school doesn't communicate with their staff.

Please be mindful that this is a VERY long term for teachers, and teaching is a stressful and exhausting job. Sometimes we are snappy because we're human and can't be perfect all the time. Teachers are not going to be able to always ensure your daughter gets spoken to or treated in a way that won't cause her to have a meltdown, and expecting them to is unreasonable. If you choose to place your daughter in a mainstream school, you have to help her prepare for that reality.

Edited

Many of us work in exhausting roles. Would you be happy to be snapped at by a midwife, a GP, a shop worker, or in fact your own boss?

You have 2 weeks holidays coming, I'm not allowed time off over Christmas so am working my usual hours, including Christmas day. Is it OK if I snap at mums and baby in my care?

Of course it's not OK, so it's not OK for teachers either, even if it is a 'long term' 🙄

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 07:39

penjil · 19/12/2023 21:44

Teachers cannot bend over backwards to accommodate special needs in a mainstream school, they can only do their best. The OPs child isn't in the best school for them, and this is why it's tougher than normal. Tougher for everyone.

In year 7, most pupils are pretty much well behaved, but by year 9, the now teenagers will get rowdy, hormonal, and opinionated....and I'm not sure how the OP's daughter will cope then. It must be a worry.

She can't go through 5 years of secondary school wearing ear defenders and having meltdowns.

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So figuring out in advance where DD should suit is bending over backwards? Really? Wow, you have a low standard for what's expected from a teacher. What a horrible post.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 07:46

Caththegreat · 19/12/2023 19:43

Why in pyjamas for goodness sake?

Just a bit of fun, which the girls seemed to enjoy.

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EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 07:48

@FUPAgirl I have said repeatedly it’s not ‘ok’ to snap at kids. It’s not something that should be habitual, of course.

However, I do think it should be understandable that sometimes, due to the stresses involved of being in sole charge of large groups of children, teachers will lose their cool.

I don’t think it’s that difficult to imagine multiple scenarios where a teacher might be pushed to snapping at a child.

We all snap sometimes. Even you. I’ve been snapped at by medical staff before, including in A&E when I was in pain and frightened. Did I call for the head of the doctor who snapped at me? No. I understood that he was knackered and had probably been dealing with a lot of shit over the previous 12 hours. I understood that no one can be perfect and professional 100% of the time.

I think we can all agree it’s not nice to be snapped at. But I think we can also all agree that people aren’t perfect and sometimes we need to seek to understand rather than accuse.

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · 20/12/2023 07:55

Maybe you, the head, all the other teachers who got involved with the 'looks' about how awful they think this teacher is and the LSA will be lucky and this dreadful, unprofessional teacher will hand her notice in over the break, for her sake I hope she does and moves on to a better school.

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 07:58

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 23:02

You're taking this quote out of context.

This comment is in response to a nursery school teacher who said that she has never had a cross word with any of the toddlers she looks after so she can't understand why a secondary school teacher would ever snap at a teenager they teach.

As I say, quite rightly, the two sets of young people come with very different challenges. Expecting a secondary school teacher to always be smiley and cheery while a teenager is telling them to fuck off or throwing a chair at them is a little unreasonable and shows a lack of understanding of the realities of the job.

And I've got plenty of empathy for my ND students. Haven't said anywhere that I don't. I'm not sure why you felt the need to address that comment to me.

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Where in the op did you read that the class was full of teens or that chairs were being thrown? Wow, you really did read a whole other op to me!

This child, who is new to the school and ND simply asked where to sit - she did not deserve to be snapped at.

You are projecting your experiences of teaching onto this OP despite them being completely irrelevant to the situation.

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 08:06

EnidSpyton, you can justify snapping at children all you like, and attempt to justify your own behaviours. However this DC did not do any of the awful things you keep describing, did she? And no, I have not ever snapped at a patient in my care, disbelieve me a you like but absolutely haven't and wouldn't.

Obviously I would if someone threw a chair at me though!

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 08:08

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 07:58

Where in the op did you read that the class was full of teens or that chairs were being thrown? Wow, you really did read a whole other op to me!

This child, who is new to the school and ND simply asked where to sit - she did not deserve to be snapped at.

You are projecting your experiences of teaching onto this OP despite them being completely irrelevant to the situation.

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This post is part of a conversation with another poster who said she couldn’t imagine a situation where a teacher could ever snap at a child and I was simply giving some scenarios to help her imagine. This has nothing to do with the OP’s description of her daughter’s school and I haven’t said it is.

If you want to wade into a discussion this far in, please read all the posts before you start quoting people, as you’re accusing me of all sorts of nonsense due to not having understood the wider context of some of my posts.

OfTheNight · 20/12/2023 08:09

Horrible@FUPAgirl ? No. It’s realistic. There is no where near the provision needed to accommodate SEN in schools. There is zero money, zero resources, zero support services. And more children than ever that need support.

People need to wake up a bit in regards to our education system and the state it’s in.

The teacher might not have even been told they had a new starter. Even if they had, are they expected to recall, perfectly every seating plan for every session? They are only people. People make mistakes.

marcopront · 20/12/2023 08:12

How come the LSA heard the teacher snap but still left your daughter standing at the front waiting for ages?
Maybe the biggest issue was the person she trusted to help her didn't do so quickly enough.

Also why didn't they wake her up and ask her if she wanted to go for lunch?
If she had the meltdown when she arrived at school she must have been asleep for a couple of hours.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:15

EnidSpyton · 19/12/2023 19:44

It's highly unusual to have a child who has been at the school for several weeks already to suddenly join a new class midweek. So something has happened internally where the OP's daughter has either been added to a new class or moved from another class, at what sounds like very short notice, as the teacher didn't have a seating plan ready.

We can only speculate, but given the unusual circumstances, I would imagine the teacher wasn't given the information in time, or didn't have time to read through everything before the class.

Giving a student with very complex needs to a teacher for the first time right at the end of term, with no training or support or preparation, is a very unhelpful thing to do. This is a bigger problem than the teacher.

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She didn't suddenly join a class midweek. She hasn't been moved at short notice. And yes,I do have sympathy with the idea the teacher may not have enough training in ASD. But all the other teachers have managed and the reaction by the head teacher and LSA to this incident made it seem this was a teacher issue (at least on part.)

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FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 08:16

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 08:08

This post is part of a conversation with another poster who said she couldn’t imagine a situation where a teacher could ever snap at a child and I was simply giving some scenarios to help her imagine. This has nothing to do with the OP’s description of her daughter’s school and I haven’t said it is.

If you want to wade into a discussion this far in, please read all the posts before you start quoting people, as you’re accusing me of all sorts of nonsense due to not having understood the wider context of some of my posts.

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I read all of the posts, don't worry! I honestly understand where you're coming from with regards to your own stressful experiences- I just don't think you're grasping this scenario in the OP. There's not much point in bringing in reasons why YOU snap at teens, it's got nothing to do with this teacher or this DD. What the person you're arguing with previously and myself are saying that it was unacceptable for this teacher to snap at this new pupil. Had dd swore and threw a chair, obvs we would be supporting the teacher. One of my kids can be an absolute shit and believe me, I support the school staff 100% in however they choose to deal with him furing those times!

Anyway, I hope you have a good day today and are breaking up for Christmas soon. 🎄

EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 08:17

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 08:06

EnidSpyton, you can justify snapping at children all you like, and attempt to justify your own behaviours. However this DC did not do any of the awful things you keep describing, did she? And no, I have not ever snapped at a patient in my care, disbelieve me a you like but absolutely haven't and wouldn't.

Obviously I would if someone threw a chair at me though!

Good for you. You’re a paragon of virtue we can all only aspire to emulate.

Back in the real world, some of us lose our cool sometimes and aren’t afraid to admit it. I don’t need to justify myself. Anyone who is around children for longer than 5 minutes knows they can be incredibly trying sometimes.

The teacher in this scenario snapped at the OP’s child when she asked where to sit because she obviously felt unprepared and stressed at the beginning of the lesson. She’s human. She’s admitted fault. She can’t change it now. No it wasn’t a great thing to do and yes she could have handled it better and I’m sure she will
learn from it going forward. I don’t see what more there is to say. We can’t hold teachers up to a standard of perfection that it’s impossible for them to achieve and then wonder why we don’t have any teachers!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:21

snackatack · 19/12/2023 19:51

YABU - if you thought 'Christmas dinner' would be a nice calm way to introduce anyone to eating a new environment.

Your DD will get there but settling so soon to the end of term -with tired staff and pupils is never going to be easy

It would have been just Y7 in there and she would have been with her form and form teacher, rather than the whole school. That was why learning support suggested it as a good introduction.

That was actually what her HOY said yesterday 'we'll get there' and I'm sure that is true.

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EnidSpyton · 20/12/2023 08:22

FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 08:16

I read all of the posts, don't worry! I honestly understand where you're coming from with regards to your own stressful experiences- I just don't think you're grasping this scenario in the OP. There's not much point in bringing in reasons why YOU snap at teens, it's got nothing to do with this teacher or this DD. What the person you're arguing with previously and myself are saying that it was unacceptable for this teacher to snap at this new pupil. Had dd swore and threw a chair, obvs we would be supporting the teacher. One of my kids can be an absolute shit and believe me, I support the school staff 100% in however they choose to deal with him furing those times!

Anyway, I hope you have a good day today and are breaking up for Christmas soon. 🎄

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I have grasped the scenario. I don’t need you to explain it to me.

I haven’t described any incidents when I’ve snapped at anyone. I’m not sure where you’ve got that from.

I and other teachers have explained reasons why the teacher may have snapped that are highly relevant to the situation outlined in the OP. The topic has digressed somewhat as other people have contributed or asked questions, and it seems you’ve got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line as you’re managing to misunderstand a great deal
of what has been said.

Thanks for your well wishes - I am already on holiday and having a marvellous time!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:23

wronginalltherightways · 19/12/2023 19:53

100%

Everything about today was new and unsettling for OP's daughter: new class, new people, new routine, different clothing, special meal. She was always going to strugg.e.

And 'Snapped' is a second hand interpretation of a teacher asking her to wait until everyone is so she could see where to put her, as would be done for any new student on the second to last day of a very long term where everyone is soooo done.

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The teacher didn't ask her to wait the teacher snapped at her.

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FUPAgirl · 20/12/2023 08:24

OP I hope your dd has a better day today 🙏

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 20/12/2023 08:26

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:15

She didn't suddenly join a class midweek. She hasn't been moved at short notice. And yes,I do have sympathy with the idea the teacher may not have enough training in ASD. But all the other teachers have managed and the reaction by the head teacher and LSA to this incident made it seem this was a teacher issue (at least on part.)

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Tis a shame this amazing LSA wasn't actually helping and supporting your dd when all this actually occurred. (Which i would presume was her role?) She stood aside, didn't greet your dd into the class, help her find her seat and settle into it, but rather stood and observed your daughters distress, the class teachers unprofessional failings ready to feed back to the head, other teachers?

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:27

TinselTitts · 19/12/2023 19:53

I know she snapped at her as my DD told me and the LSA backed it up.

What words did the LSA actually use?

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'yes, she did'. Further discussion happened between the LSA and headteacher that I wasn't privy to. However, the headteacher told me that she doesn't condone impolite polite behaviour from anyone at school, refering to the the teachers behaviour as impolite.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 20/12/2023 08:28

Witsend101 · 19/12/2023 19:57

Not the point of this thread but I'd love to know where these 'specialist' schools are that cater for academic ND children who can manage the schoolwork but have difficulties with the environment. I can see numerous posts from teachers and others suggesting that ND children would fare better outside of mainstream so how does one go about finding this provision as it sounds like an ideal solution to this issue ? Where do we apply? There would be a queue for miles for a provision like that.

Exactly, this provision doesn't exist.

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