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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What are reasonable overnight arrangements with 175 miles of distance?

120 replies

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 08:58

Both parents work full time Mon- Fri. Child is 5. Third party needed for handovers due to history of abuse so father would have to drive to collect and mother would have a friend facilitate. Child lives with mother (me) and courts want to work towards overnights at father's house 175 miles away. Any advice on what would seem reasonable? I don't want this to happen due to what I feel are risks to the child however I'm being forced to come up with a plan. And I need to make suggestions or the judge will just decide. No money for legal advice and have no idea what is reasonable. Any suggestions?

OP posts:
Pluvia · 16/12/2023 10:28

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 09:07

The courts will never make an order for someone who isn't involved in proceedings to do something like that.

Well then, what if you travelled with the friend and child to the handover spot halfway between your respective home.

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:28

SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:26

Affordability is for him to worry about. Offer fortnightly and let him be the one who essentially "reduces" contact.

I mention it because the judge was suggesting we stopped using a contact centre due to the cost to father, which is far less than a hotel. She seems to be very concerned about his finances for some reason!

OP posts:
diddl · 16/12/2023 10:28

silverheartstogether · 16/12/2023 10:12

Rape, racial abuse, and putting his baby in danger and he's still judged by the courts as deserving of a chance to be a father. The bar really is frighteningly low for men isn't it.

So sorry, OP Flowers

It's disgraceful isn't it?

I thought it was supposed to be about the rights of the child to see their father?

Honestly, if it was anyone else you'd be being told to protect your child from them not subject them to him.

And the fact that it's his father makes it worse.

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:29

Pluvia · 16/12/2023 10:28

Well then, what if you travelled with the friend and child to the handover spot halfway between your respective home.

It's not reliable enough. I don't have many friends who would be OK for a 4 hour round trip to meet with him. If I have nobody to do it one weekend I'm stuck with either breaking a court order or meeting him myself.

OP posts:
Notmetoo · 16/12/2023 10:30

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 09:13

Yes they feel there is still psychological risk. There was rape involved and I can't be in the same room as him.

I have no practical advice but I just want to say how sorry I am that you have to face this and also express my anger at the courts for suggesting you should work out how overnights could work.
I would try and delay it as long as possible.

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:31

I'm also very concerned about what I tell our child about the abuse as he gets older. Currently he knows nothing, but is he more at risk that way? What the hell do I say when he starts asking questions?

OP posts:
Teaandtoast12 · 16/12/2023 10:32

This sounds like such an awful situation, I am so sorry you’re in it. I have no experience with things like this, but my parents are separated and as a kid things were a bit dodgy with my Dad’s wife at the time so on our contact days (fortnightly overnight) my Dad would take us to stay in a hotel cheap travelodge usually around £25-£30 a night close to home. My brother and I absolutely loved it and we were always close to home I don’t know if this is an option? As it means that he is only have to drive the 175 miles once as he is already doing and you’re close by as well, as I said I have no idea if it’s possible as this was just something sorted between my parents but thought I would mention it. I really hope you’re okay OP

Nicole1111 · 16/12/2023 10:32

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 09:55

So I'm thinking:

  • working up to a full day near child's residence as laid out in court order
  • then work towards father staying overnight (not sure how often yet) returning child home to mother for the evening, then spending a second day together, building that second day up in increments (possibly with half a day as a starting point)
  • then build up to child staying overnight with dad near child's home (would he need a separate bed or would one bed be OK?)

That's as far as I've got. I have no idea how to frame the overnights at father's house as I can't predict when he will be ready for that. I will need to work on him staying overnight at grandparents and play dates etc as currently he doesn't stay away from me and the handful of times I've tried it has been quite stressful for him.

Monthly contact once out of the contact centre. First one a morning, second a morning and afternoon, third one a day and overnight with return in the morning, fourth one a full weekend. All of this in the local area with handovers with your friend. After this moves to father’s area during school holidays for a weekend, and then if that goes well a week max. Ask you get Christmas and other special holidays (unlikely you’ll get it and they will probably say alternate Christmases but you can try).

LaurieStrode · 16/12/2023 10:32

Judge sounds horrible!

SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:33

Is he paying cms?

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:34

SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:33

Is he paying cms?

Yes. He works cash in hand so its £20 odd a week. I've reported him for tax evasion but they don't do anything. I've stopped worrying about it now.

OP posts:
SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:38

So is the Judge of the impression that he isn't working then?

Onceuponaheartache · 16/12/2023 10:38

Given the additional update about racial abuse and more importantly the abuse of your child I REALLY think you need to get proper legal advice @CandyFluff99

There is no way in hell that I would be letting my kid anywhere near him given this behaviour.

You need to find a way to get proper advice. If this has been minimalised by the judge then she is putting your son at huge risk.

Does your son have a social worker?

BreatheAndFocus · 16/12/2023 10:39

Could you make a staged plan, but with provisos? Eg father has son for x amount of time for 6 months, then that increases to Y amount of time provided that….

If you set up a reasonable working towards overnights plan, with stages, then that should hopefully satisfy the judge and also give you some control (with the provisos). I’d drag the plan out over as long a time as you think the judge would accept. I’d also have the overnights local to you to start with, eg in a hotel. You could start with one overnight a month maybe?

I hate the way the courts ignore abusive fathers’ abuse and facilitate them continuing it via the child. I also hate the way that mothers are made to feel bad for even mentioning it yet are also criticised if they miss it or don’t mention it.

Good luck xx

Notmetoo · 16/12/2023 10:40

TiptoeTess · 16/12/2023 09:31

God, this feels appalling. Who on earth thinks an abusive man is a good role model for a child?? I despair.

OP, I think I would suggest that contact continues via your local contact centre as it currently is for another year, ie a few hours, then progresses to a full day via the contact centre (still local to you) next year, then an overnight facilitated by the contact centre (still local to you) the following year and then to two nights during school holidays the following year BUT still facilitated by the local contact centre (ie he still has to do the 175 miles each way.)

I would argue this on the basis that due to the abusive history it will be important for your son’s contact to continue to be facilitated by somewhere familiar to him. Say how strongly you feel that this adds risk and so your compromise is by going along with it at all. Don’t offer midway; make them force you out f it comes to it. I have no idea what’s reasonable or what they’re likely to agree but do not make it any easier for him than you have to!

I’m hoping at some point during that time your ex basically gets sick of doing the miles and drops out tbh.

I agree with this, suggest a long phased increased contact. Facilitated by the contact centre near you. He has to rent somewhere if he wants overnight a b&b or Air BnB for the night

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:40

SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:38

So is the Judge of the impression that he isn't working then?

No he just under declares his earnings. The judge knows nothing of our finances.

OP posts:
CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:44

Onceuponaheartache · 16/12/2023 10:38

Given the additional update about racial abuse and more importantly the abuse of your child I REALLY think you need to get proper legal advice @CandyFluff99

There is no way in hell that I would be letting my kid anywhere near him given this behaviour.

You need to find a way to get proper advice. If this has been minimalised by the judge then she is putting your son at huge risk.

Does your son have a social worker?

Unfortunately it's not that simple.

OP posts:
megletthesecond · 16/12/2023 10:46

Yet again an abusive mans wants are put above the wellbeing of a child. He shouldn't be within a mile of either of you ever again. Why do the courts think this is OK? male judges

SecondUsername4me · 16/12/2023 10:46

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:40

No he just under declares his earnings. The judge knows nothing of our finances.

Well then I'd make a point of saying that he can concern himself with the costs, given that, to your knowledge, he doesn't have a proper job.

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 11:19

megletthesecond · 16/12/2023 10:46

Yet again an abusive mans wants are put above the wellbeing of a child. He shouldn't be within a mile of either of you ever again. Why do the courts think this is OK? male judges

Female judge

OP posts:
Onceuponaheartache · 16/12/2023 11:22

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 10:44

Unfortunately it's not that simple.

Fully aware of that. That is why I asked if your son has a social worker. One should have been appointed by the court.

CandyFluff99 · 16/12/2023 11:23

Onceuponaheartache · 16/12/2023 11:22

Fully aware of that. That is why I asked if your son has a social worker. One should have been appointed by the court.

Yes Cafcass

OP posts:
Onceuponaheartache · 16/12/2023 11:27

Cafcass are notoriously shit. I would contact your local social services and ask for advice about the potential risk and for a social worker to be assigned maybe.

PurpleBugz · 16/12/2023 12:16

Court ordered overnights with my abusive ex a similar distance away when my youngest was 6 months and breast fed. He had one overnight then upped to two when baby was 7 months. This was because judge decided I was too resistant to overnights as I said kids too young. The system is so fucking disgusting it serves fathers not the children.

If it's already planned to go up to 8 hours a visit I'd suggest 2-3 months of that then one overnight with the agreement to re look at it once child settles. I doubt you will get away with that but I'd try because as you say you can't tell when child is ready.

Look up child maintenance amounts as it depends on overnights. If you give two overnights every other week/equivalent to one overnight a week the maintenance reduces this May b part of his motivation. Offer just enough to reduce his maintenance that may satisfy ex.

I did stand my ground on handover location. We had somewhere public close to me and I had someone else do it. Ex fought most over this as he wanted me doing the travel. Stand your ground in this. I'd fight it more than the amount of contact because in my case ex doesn't want to see kids he wants to control me. I'm glad I did because driving that far every other week costs a fortune and it impacts your life- you can't enjoy your child free time as you spend it driving. You can't see friends or have a life or spend time with a nee partner as your ex contact sabotages it. Obviously don't use the need for your own life as your reasoning for not doing the drive but honestly stand your ground. If you have the history of abuse accepted by court and the need for third party handovers then you can say if it's not local to you finding appropriate third party kid knows well enough will be too difficult and will have a negative impact on contact. Keep child focused in everything you say.

Another thing to consider is Christmas and holiday contact. Usually a court order says to split them but doesn't tell you how it expects you to agree between yourselves- this just gives ex more control over you. I insisted all holiday contact would be set out in court order, as Christmas was over the weekend and fell on his weekend for 3 years running I argued we don't do extra holiday contact the kids spend Christmas with the parent who's regular weekend it is. As I was giving away 3 Christmas in a row the judge ordered this. (Ex then cancelled 2 out of those 3 Christmas last minute). Have a think about it. Maybe something like alternative years Christmas Eve 1pm to Boxing Day 1pm. You want the times in the order. If Christmas falls immediately before or after ex regular weekend then you have to decide if you argue he misses that weekend or accept 4 nights with your child away. Look at the calendar and work out where Christmas falls in the next few years in relation to who has the closest weekend.

For holiday contact again I argued we couldn't agree amoung ourselves. I gave ex one half term of his choice but that it would be the same each year and he chose which and that went into the order. and 2 weeks I'm summer- with the condition he give me 2 or 3 months notice which weeks (can't remember now how long exactly) it wasn't to be an agreement it was his choice but he had to give me reasonable notice. I think the first year it had to be two separate weeks as kids hadn't been away. Again ex not bothered with his holiday contract despite fighting for it. I think the first extended stay was agreed to be 4 days rather than the full week (it was the half term) so you could suggest the first couple of extended holiday contacts are 4 nights before it's increased to a week.

I am certain that by giving so much of my Christmas time with the kids and by insisting the order set everything out so he could not use the kids contact to control and abuse me the judge saw my genuine fear and gave the order we needed if I had been picky and argued I need to see the kids over Christmas I would have ended up arguing with ex over Christmas contact every year which he would have loved. I'm also certain that because I reply "we will follow the court order kids will be available for collection x time x date as per court order" then I don't respond to repeated attempts to draw me in I've escaped years of his continuing control and abuse and the kids have benefited as they cannot be used as pawns to the same extent I see others suffer with these holiday contact "as agreed between parties" orders. Do everything you can not to have that wording it's cart balance to mess with your life.

At the end of the day it will be a judge who makes a decision on if your proposal is reasonable. The judge is a human being and they vary as all people do. I've known people get much better orders than mine and much worse (all of us are DV sufferers we met on the freedom program). Judges have too much power in my opinion. But keep child focused on all your arguments and don't be picky about arguing over small details it just pisses them off and your order will be worse.

Good luck. It's horrible and traumatic going through court but hold onto the fact once it's over and done you will have that court order to protect you from future abuse and control. When I went through it I thought it was horrible and I was bereft at loosing my kids at the weekends but as time has passed I'm immensely glad we have the order initially it did do harm to the kids they were too young to go but in the end it's protected me from his continuing abuse and protected them from being used for that abuse. I actually enjoy my weekends off now as it turned out the baby has significant needs and is disabled so I need the break, ex gives kids to his gf or mother to care for generally and while they are not great they are good enough so I don't worry about them like I use to when he was doing it. Once you get free from court that could be the case for you too. See it as him loosing his control not you loosing your child. The best thing for your child is him not using contact to abuse you

PurpleBugz · 16/12/2023 12:24

Coram used to have a free family law advice line you could phone. Actual barristers and solicitors to speak to. It was always engaged and I'd be trying for an hour on average to get through but when you can't afford legal advice it's invaluable