What are reasonable overnight arrangements with 175 miles of distance?

[CandyFluff99]

Both parents work full time Mon- Fri. Child is 5. Third party needed for handovers due to history of abuse so father would have to drive to collect and mother would have a friend facilitate. Child lives with mother (me) and courts want to work towards overnights at father's house 175 miles away. Any advice on what would seem reasonable? I don't want this to happen due to what I feel are risks to the child however I'm being forced to come up with a plan. And I need to make suggestions or the judge will just decide. No money for legal advice and have no idea what is reasonable. Any suggestions?

This happens in our family. The abusive ex is living abroad, the agreement is a week annually. He flies over to collect them. It is the abusive twunt who is my family member, ex wife unfortunately for her, married into the family. He Andrew Tate’s that is all the Mum’s fault, but he is an absolutely vile specimen of humanity and his own family including his kids know that.

It is such a tough one and the courts do not protect children from an abusive low life parent. I think see can you get the visits starting on your local contact centre and you put in an age suggestion.

This. And stretch it out as much as possible. So first overnight will be in a year. Then two night overnights a year after that, working up to a week twice a year when child is, say, 9. You can stipulate that ex needs to be on leave (ie not working) during contact. Hopefully ex will get sick of the faff and palaver and give up, or a miracle will happen and he’ll turn into a fine upstanding citizen and impeccable role model…

Are they likely to take into account hobbies/friends/birthday parties etc or should I just accept that he's going to miss things? I see this being difficult as he gets older but courts might mo see it as an issue.

No courts don’t consider those kinds of things. The focus is the children having a relationship with the parent.

Fair enough, I'm not trying to be obstructive, I just don't want to include details the courts aren't interested in. It's so hard self representing.

Dont overcomplicate it. When your son is ready, you'll facilitate a handover that includes dad staying near you on a Saturday night in a hotel/air bnb, for one night. This will continue for a while and then dad can stay Friday and SAturday night and move up to 2 overnights in a row

This could happen monthly or fortnightly according to need

As the child gets older, if this is still meeting the child's needs and if handovers are safe and positive, then perhaps the overnights could occur at father's house with father doing the drive to collect and drop off (although that is a hard one as you were the one to move away) but travel training once he starts secondary school would ensure he can do the journey on his own

Over time, and as the child develops, might need to work around saturday morning clubs or friday even play dates etc, so could incorporate some school holiday staying time.

My brain hurts 😣 can I just say how hard it is even considering writing this plan for a man who raped me to spend time with our child. It's taking every fibre of my being to comply and appear reasonable.

I don’t see why that matters when there’s domestic abuse involved. Sometimes you have to leave the area you once lived in because of
it.

OP, are you sure you are not
entitled to free legal aid? You say you can’t afford legal assistance but if there’s been abuse you shouldn’t be having to pay. What has your ex been expected to do by the judge to show he is a responsible, trustworthy parent? Has he been
keeping up his end of that? I do understand your concerns.

It doesn't matter and the courts have already acknowledged that I had no other choice and that travel is responsibility of the father (currently anyway).

I can get legal aid but I'm not eligible due to how far into court proceedings I am and the details of the case. Rights of women have confirmed I'm unlikely to get it. Its hard to come by these days.

He completed a domestic abuse perpetrator programme, but the report was littered with lies he'd told and he was still denying the abuse. They aren't worth the paper they're written on (and have now been stopped for review as found not fit for purpose!!!)

I get that. Unfortunately the court will expect you to separate the abuse to you from his behaviour with your son.

Assuming he isnt abusive to your son then the court will push for contact as they staunchly uphold that it is best for the child to have a relationship with both parents.

The key is proposing something that delays the inevitable as long as possible. Most abusive rapists can't maintain the facade indefinitely, you need to appear as reaaonable as possible, always using the argument that father is a stranger, son needs to build a relationship in somewhere he feels safe and familiar until he reverts to his standard behaviour and slips up. I know that means putting your son at risk but unfortunately til that happens the courts will push on.

As court are allowing contact I assume you didn't press charges?

So I'm thinking:

• working up to a full day near child's residence as laid out in court order
• then work towards father staying overnight (not sure how often yet) returning child home to mother for the evening, then spending a second day together, building that second day up in increments (possibly with half a day as a starting point)
• then build up to child staying overnight with dad near child's home (would he need a separate bed or would one bed be OK?)

That's as far as I've got. I have no idea how to frame the overnights at father's house as I can't predict when he will be ready for that. I will need to work on him staying overnight at grandparents and play dates etc as currently he doesn't stay away from me and the handful of times I've tried it has been quite stressful for him.

I took it to the police who said I wouldn't get a positive outcome and talked me out of it. It's a big regret of mine but they said CPS wouldn't even look at it as coercive control hard to prosecute, as is rape, as is historic physical abuse. It was all found to have happened in a fact finding though so at least the family courts accept it to have happened. But accept it is a lower burden of proof than in criminal courts.

I’m so sorry OP. I’ve been through family court myself due to DV and while I was lucky to get a place in a refuge with my children that had great staff who had connections with some incredibly helpful people. Not everyone is that lucky. And fwiw, my ex was no less of a danger and a terrible father to our children. I would try and drag out the building up to overnight contact as long as possible in the hope he loses interest in your child. The best thing my ex has ever done for my children is stopping contacting them eventually, presumably as he lost interest in them.

💯 this and I’m really sorry for you. It is horrendous. These toerags get contact orders almost no matter what.

Thank you both. You are absolutely right.

This 💐

I'm so sorry this happened to you and that you are now having to do all this mental work for your child to see someone who in no way deserves a relationship with him.

He was also found to have assaulted our child at 3 months old and put his medical health in danger to spite me. Also racial abuse and harassment (he's white and I'm black). It's unbelievable.

Rape, racial abuse, and putting his baby in danger and he's still judged by the courts as deserving of a chance to be a father. The bar really is frighteningly low for men isn't it.

So sorry, OP

Yep. Contact at all costs. It will go wrong eventually I am quite sure of it.

@CunkEverywhereOnEverything I absolutely agree when OP/victim has had to move due to the abuse, I just thought if he'd moved for his own reasons he could be liable to do most of the travelling

If the court are asking for your suggestions, then I'd say:-
1x year of current set up with no skips
1x year of eow he comes to a local place for an overnight with no skips
Revisit to then discuss next steps.

Buys you 2x years to see if he is reliable, check risks to child, and child is older.

I'd not want a young child travelling 175miles per day 2 days in a row every other weekend

I don't think he'd be able to afford the travel and hotel every other weekend (would be close to £400 a month) so was going to suggest monthly overnights, and due to distance and age that overnights would only ever be once monthly or in school holidays unless the child specified a different more frequent preference. Could be OK?

first of all, I’m sorry this has happened to you, and is still happening. I find it hard enough making arrangements with ExH; I can’t imagine how hard it must be to have to do the same with an abuser.

Your plan sounds sensible. I’d add a final point that you build towards overnights at his house - with him travelling to local contact centre for handover and drop off. So that in the future you don’t end up back in court to sort out that bit.

When a previous poster said the four weeks leave was irrelevant, I don’t think she meant the part about your ex leaving DS with someone; she meant the four weeks leave. That’s normal for most parents. If ex wants a relationship with his child, he needs to use his holiday allowance to do that. No other parent (well, except the very rich ones!) get four weeks leave AND contact with their children; they spend their leave with their children. That’s for him to sort out, not for you to worry about though.

good luck. It sounds very tough.

Affordability is for him to worry about. Offer fortnightly and let him be the one who essentially "reduces" contact.